Invisible Blade

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Flatted Fifth
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Re: Invisible Blade

Unread post by Flatted Fifth »

Forest of Wyrms. Are you testing in the UD? You know you get a bonus in dark areas?

And it occurs to me that if Invis Blade gave Feint at level 1 instead of requiring it, and had UMD as a class skill like deception-based classes should, then it would be worth it.


[Edit to add] I don't mean Create Diversion won't let me hide from the green dragon, I never could with any character though I honestly haven't tied much. With my old Duelist I would just buff to 69 AC and tank it. Soon as my new one has 1 more level I will do that again. I mean I can't reliably use it to hide from anything there, especially the elemental that I could always hide from before. Fails way more often than not. I think the prob is the -10 hide penalty more than my bluff skill. I understand the reason for it, but -10 is a bit harsh. half that would be more reasonable.
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Louvaine
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Re: Invisible Blade

Unread post by Louvaine »

If you can't hide through Forest of Wyrms (or most other areas) then that's on your build, not on IB as a class. I know some areas are broken with spot and I still have Frost Giants target me after HiPS, but hey. It's nwn2. It's buggy.

When it comes to IB, I agree that it's not a very good class compared to a Duelist. But the thing is, it doesn't do what Duelist does. Putting AC aside and ignoring faint as I personally think those are extras and can't work reliably on any sneaky build, take a look at that bleeding. 6 damage per tick. You get to inflict 6 points of damage for 3 rounds for each sneak attack you do. On average, that means at least 3 per round. Which means while you don't sneak for as much as straight rogue would, you make it up over time as you deal 6 as opposed to 1d6. You bypass DR and it stacks beautifully. I might be wrong here, but I think it stacks up to 3 times. Or maybe you can push it further with more AB. I think that having 18 damage floating around on a mob, bypassing DR, is brilliant. This is where IB shines. He doesn't need shield, because he wants to keep doing damage. Their shield is their stealth.

I would never build one that doesn't have HiPS. I don't like the Create Diversion. Phantom does work, but since you already have a high INT stat, you might as well go for Assassin and get those spells and death attack. I had a build like that (based on rogue), paired it with Guild Thief for some free feats and appraise and it worked wonders even before DR bypass. Now I'd be tempted to just roll Rogue, Assasin, Invisible Blade. Maybe a Whirling Dervish or some Tempest, or something. Or maybe just more Rogue for more feats.

Definitely, definitely don't compare this class to Duelist. You never want to be tanking, you want to pump your Hide to 80s and your MS to 70s. At least.
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Steve
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Re: Invisible Blade

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Fighter 12 / Champion of Corellon 10 / Invisible Blade 5 / Shadowdancer 3.

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Blackman D
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Re: Invisible Blade

Unread post by Blackman D »

Louvaine wrote: Tue Dec 20, 2022 7:15 am I might be wrong here, but I think it stacks up to 3 times.
lasts for 3 rounds per sneak landed

4 sneaks for one round = 72 bleed damage (over 3 rounds) just from that round, but you are going to do 24 damage per round which will stack to 48 in one round the next round if you do another 4 sneaks then 72 in the third round if you land another 4 sneaks, capping out at 72 bleed damage per round till you stop or they die

bleed damage is not exactly weak
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Tanlaus
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Re: Invisible Blade

Unread post by Tanlaus »

Louvaine wrote: Tue Dec 20, 2022 7:15 am If you can't hide through Forest of Wyrms (or most other areas) then that's on your build, not on IB as a class. I know some areas are broken with spot and I still have Frost Giants target me after HiPS, but hey. It's nwn2. It's buggy.

When it comes to IB, I agree that it's not a very good class compared to a Duelist. But the thing is, it doesn't do what Duelist does. Putting AC aside and ignoring faint as I personally think those are extras and can't work reliably on any sneaky build, take a look at that bleeding. 6 damage per tick. You get to inflict 6 points of damage for 3 rounds for each sneak attack you do. On average, that means at least 3 per round. Which means while you don't sneak for as much as straight rogue would, you make it up over time as you deal 6 as opposed to 1d6. You bypass DR and it stacks beautifully. I might be wrong here, but I think it stacks up to 3 times. Or maybe you can push it further with more AB. I think that having 18 damage floating around on a mob, bypassing DR, is brilliant. This is where IB shines. He doesn't need shield, because he wants to keep doing damage. Their shield is their stealth.

I would never build one that doesn't have HiPS. I don't like the Create Diversion. Phantom does work, but since you already have a high INT stat, you might as well go for Assassin and get those spells and death attack. I had a build like that (based on rogue), paired it with Guild Thief for some free feats and appraise and it worked wonders even before DR bypass. Now I'd be tempted to just roll Rogue, Assasin, Invisible Blade. Maybe a Whirling Dervish or some Tempest, or something. Or maybe just more Rogue for more feats.

Definitely, definitely don't compare this class to Duelist. You never want to be tanking, you want to pump your Hide to 80s and your MS to 70s. At least.
Ultimately, yes my favorite IB build is 14 swash/3 rogue/5 IB/8 assassin and combat insight is worked in as one of the epic feats. There’s a lot of synergy with assassin and they have that int buff.

It’s just that create diversion is a viable option for builds without HiPS.
Flatted Fifth wrote: Tue Dec 20, 2022 4:55 am Forest of Wyrms. Are you testing in the UD? You know you get a bonus in dark areas?

And it occurs to me that if Invis Blade gave Feint at level 1 instead of requiring it, and had UMD as a class skill like deception-based classes should, then it would be worth it.


[Edit to add] I don't mean Create Diversion won't let me hide from the green dragon, I never could with any character though I honestly haven't tied much. With my old Duelist I would just buff to 69 AC and tank it. Soon as my new one has 1 more level I will do that again. I mean I can't reliably use it to hide from anything there, especially the elemental that I could always hide from before. Fails way more often than not. I think the prob is the -10 hide penalty more than my bluff skill. I understand the reason for it, but -10 is a bit harsh. half that would be more reasonable.
I test builds and races on the surface as much as the UD. But I will drag that specific Phantom up there to see what happens.
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Steve
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Re: Invisible Blade

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Blackman D wrote: Tue Dec 20, 2022 9:42 am
Louvaine wrote: Tue Dec 20, 2022 7:15 am I might be wrong here, but I think it stacks up to 3 times.
lasts for 3 rounds per sneak landed

4 sneaks for one round = 72 bleed damage (over 3 rounds) just from that round, but you are going to do 24 damage per round which will stack to 48 in one round the next round if you do another 4 sneaks then 72 in the third round if you land another 4 sneaks, capping out at 72 bleed damage per round till you stop or they die

bleed damage is not exactly weak
And let’s not forget all the other dmg the build is likely doing at the same time!!

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PANLOS PAWFOOT — The Essential Nature of...
ERMMAR STONESORROW — Cavestalker of the Darkshard Deviants. Herb Trader.
Flatted Fifth
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Re: Invisible Blade

Unread post by Flatted Fifth »

Louvaine wrote: Tue Dec 20, 2022 7:15 am If you can't hide through Forest of Wyrms (or most other areas) then that's on your build, not on IB as a class. I know some areas are broken with spot and I still have Frost Giants target me after HiPS, but hey. It's nwn2. It's buggy.
This was not about IB. This was a tangent about Create Diversion between Tanlaus and myself because Tanlaus mentioned the synergy between IB/Feint and Create Diversion. I mentioned that the synergy with Create Diversion is not a bonus for the class because CB is not reliable even with maxed bluff and skill focus bluff. My chars with real HiPs can hide there just fine. You would have known that if you had read more thoroughly before piping in, but I do take some blame for going slightly off-topic.
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Dread Omega
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Re: Invisible Blade

Unread post by Dread Omega »

Heeey! If everyone gets HIPs then why not have shadow jaunt lower the refresh time by ten seconds per every six ranks invested in Lore: The Planes?

I mean stacking bleed (up to 18 a turn) and great AC AND they want free HIPs... Oh, and let me guess bleed stacks with expose weakness too!

:snooty:
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Dread Omega
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Re: Invisible Blade

Unread post by Dread Omega »

Louvaine wrote: Tue Dec 20, 2022 7:15 am ...When it comes to IB, I agree that it's not a very good class compared to a Duelist. But the thing is, it doesn't do what Duelist does...
Listen to this man for a really good IB build. I wasn't going to say it.
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Louvaine
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Re: Invisible Blade

Unread post by Louvaine »

I was actually inspired by this subject to roll a drow invisible blade. Ended up with Rogue 11, Swashbuckler 5, Assassin 9 and Invisible Blade 5. Looks solid. I think it would have around 60 damage per hit, around 4 hits reliably hitting per round, that makes 240 damage on the first round and 24 bleeding on every round after that. Not bad damage for a rogue with that AB. High (for sneaky guy) AC and HP is an added bonus, I wouldn't expect to use it. Ever.
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Re: Invisible Blade

Unread post by Winterborne »

The main weakness of Create Diversion is the choice on BG to not allow bluff and hide/Ms on the same items. Create diversion already hides you at a penalty to those skills and then you either don't have bluff or don't have stealth boosted.
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Flatted Fifth
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Re: Invisible Blade

Unread post by Flatted Fifth »

Winterborne wrote: Wed Dec 21, 2022 11:31 am The main weakness of Create Diversion is the choice on BG to not allow bluff and hide/Ms on the same items. Create diversion already hides you at a penalty to those skills and then you either don't have bluff or don't have stealth boosted.
Agreed. Also I'm not sure that the environmental bonuses for darkness and cover that are automatically applied to normal stealth are being applied to hiding with CD. I've noticed that often my HiPS character has no trouble hiding when my CD character passes the bluff but fails the hide, even though my CD character's Hide skill is slightly higher. I will have to take both characters to the place I've had the most trouble, the Formian Hive in the UD, and screenshot and compare rolls. Will have a couple days off next week to try that out.
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Blackman D
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Re: Invisible Blade

Unread post by Blackman D »

any engine bonuses to stealth are applied on hiding and then dont change unless its an environmental change

it also depends on the map settings, an underground map generally has a universal hide bonus that is only negated by light zones, whereas a surface map rotates hide and spot bonus with time of day

engine bonuses are +/- 5 and stack if multiple apply, but there are usually as many negates as there are bonuses so it really depends on whats going on
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