Remove the Oddity of generated Teleport Scrolls

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Kitunenotsume
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Re: Remove the Oddity of generated Teleport Scrolls

Unread post by Kitunenotsume »

DaloLorn wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 4:59 am All indications are currently that the UMD cost somehow scales based off of "skillvs"... something, something. I'm on the wrong machine to check what the full 2DA name is right now. It seems to track the item's cost and apply UMD thresholds based on that. (This cost, in turn, has very little to do with the scroll's CL at this time. IIRC, the scroll currently has a base cost of just above 1000gp? It's been a while since I bought any.)

In theory, we could zero out all the columns and add our own UMD enforcement in the on_equip and on_castspell hooks. However, no coherent proposal has yet been made for such a change, and it is likely that it would bring us closer in line with PnP rules. (Which probably means no more taking 20 on wands or other non-scroll uses of UMD, though we'd probably also strip out most class/alignment restrictions from anything except wands and scrolls.)
Thanks for the pointer. I've corrected my post above to include the proper code, and located SkillVsItemCost.2da, and it seems pretty straightforward.
For an item with a class restriction worth 800-999 GP, the UMD modifier required to attempt use is 25. For a price of 1000-1199, the DC is 27. For 1200 GP and higher, it looks to be DC 29. A cursory glance at Sorcerous Sundries suggests that the price for a CL18 teleport scroll is over 1200 (and it probably should be: 5 * 18 * 25 = 2250 gp. With a +18 appraise, I am seeing 1230 GP for the scroll at Sundries).
This would explain why Snarfy is able to use a scroll when his character has a +29 UMD, while Steve is suffering with a +25.

Changing the scroll to CL 9 (as per minimum for scrolls of 5th level) would reason a price of 1125 GP (5*9*25), which would drop the DC from 29 down to 27, unfortunately still outside Steve's range, but at least we now know why.

Explanation of the 2da (For Dalo, I suspect)
Hidden: show
The SkillVsItemCost.2da is a fairly plain read: column 1 is the value of items which is checked for Use Magic Device, column 2 is the DC required for class-restricted items, column 3 is the DC for race-restricted, column 4 is the DC for alignment-restricted, and column 5 is values of items for which the DCs apply to Lore (for identification).
So it applies to 2 skills: UMD for if you can use the thing, and Lore for if you can identify it.
If you are checking UMD, look for the item's value in Column 1; If you are using Lore to Identify, check the value in Column 5
Next check the most expensive restriction: Alignment is more expensive than race, with Class being more expensive early and capped at DC29; and take the highest applicable DC for the row.
That is the required modifier for being able to either identify or use the item. Pretty sure there is no roll involved at all.
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Steve
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Re: Remove the Oddity of generated Teleport Scrolls

Unread post by Steve »

Snarfy’s PC was failing the Teleport system DC, which is different than the UMD DC.

My issue is still the Factor for meeting the restriction on generated Teleport scrolls, which is obviously different/custom than a normal Level 5 scroll.

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Re: Remove the Oddity of generated Teleport Scrolls

Unread post by DaloLorn »

Steve wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 5:53 am Snarfy’s PC was failing the Teleport system DC, which is different than the UMD DC.
Precisely.
My issue is still the Factor for meeting the restriction on generated Teleport scrolls, which is obviously different/custom than a normal Level 5 scroll.
As Kit and I pointed out, the scroll's minimum UMD depends on its value, not its spell level. Teleport scrolls are probably valued somewhere between 1000 and 1199 GP, requiring a minimum of 27 UMD to even attempt to activate it.

I'm a little fuzzy on why the game lets non-scroll items work with 11 (or was it 13?) UMD, though, since the prices of most class-locked items (including wands, most likely) should slot them all into various 29-UMD brackets...
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Re: Remove the Oddity of generated Teleport Scrolls

Unread post by Kitunenotsume »

Steve wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 5:53 am My issue is still the Factor for meeting the restriction on generated Teleport scrolls, which is obviously different/custom than a normal Level 5 scroll.
using Sorcerous Sundries as my baseline (@ +18 appraise):
Lesser Spell Mantle, and Feeblemind (Cleric 5, Wizard/Sorc 5; Innate 5, CL 7) costs 509 GP. Per the 2da, this should be a DC 21 UMD to use (+/- 2 points for Appraise, possibly reduced to 19.)
Teleport (Wizard/Sorc 5, Travel/trade 5; Innate 5, CL 18) costs 1230 GP. Per the 2da, this should be DC 29 (+/- 2 points for Appraise, probably reduced to 27.)

The value for a CL9, Innate 5 scroll should be 1125 GP (5*9*25), while the value for a CL18, Innate 5 scroll should be 2250 gp (5*18*25), so both are apparently receiving close to half-off the scribing prices for each when posted to the store. As such, it appears that the prices for each are appropriately scaled against where they should be.
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Re: Remove the Oddity of generated Teleport Scrolls

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DaloLorn wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 6:18 am
Steve wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 5:53 am Snarfy’s PC was failing the Teleport system DC, which is different than the UMD DC.
Precisely.
My issue is still the Factor for meeting the restriction on generated Teleport scrolls, which is obviously different/custom than a normal Level 5 scroll.
As Kit and I pointed out, the scroll's minimum UMD depends on its value, not its spell level. Teleport scrolls are probably valued somewhere between 1000 and 1199 GP, requiring a minimum of 27 UMD to even attempt to activate it.

I'm a little fuzzy on why the game lets non-scroll items work with 11 (or was it 13?) UMD, though, since the prices of most class-locked items (including wands, most likely) should slot them all into various 29-UMD brackets...
But why in all Faerun should a UMD restriction DC be calculated on its scribing cost, or value?!?

Doesn’t that just go against logic? Or, is this just how Obsidian “tied it all together?”

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Re: Remove the Oddity of generated Teleport Scrolls

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Image

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Re: Remove the Oddity of generated Teleport Scrolls

Unread post by DaloLorn »

Steve wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 6:43 amBut why in all Faerun should a UMD restriction DC be calculated on its scribing cost, or value?!?

Doesn’t that just go against logic? Or, is this just how Obsidian “tied it all together?”
This is documented in BW's Aurora doc PDFs, so it's not an Obsidian thing.

As for your wiki screenshot: The "generally" in "generally 11 + 2x spell level" is because the scroll costs, as defined in the half-dozen 2DAs controlling this thing, generally land in SkillVsItemCost brackets matching that formula.
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Re: Remove the Oddity of generated Teleport Scrolls

Unread post by Steve »

DaloLorn wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 6:56 am
Steve wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 6:43 amBut why in all Faerun should a UMD restriction DC be calculated on its scribing cost, or value?!?

Doesn’t that just go against logic? Or, is this just how Obsidian “tied it all together?”
This is documented in BW's Aurora doc PDFs, so it's not an Obsidian thing.

As for your wiki screenshot: The "generally" in "generally 11 + 2x spell level" is because the scroll costs, as defined in the half-dozen 2DAs controlling this thing, generally land in SkillVsItemCost brackets matching that formula.
Okay. So, if Teleport scrolls when generated go down to CL 9, the base minimum, what will the UMD need to be to unrestrict?

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Re: Remove the Oddity of generated Teleport Scrolls

Unread post by DaloLorn »

Still 27, because the CL is a separate 2DA column with no bearing on the cost of having the spell on an item. :P We could, if we so desired, have a CL50 Teleport scroll cost 20gp and therefore have a UMD minimum of 13 (though it would still need a DC30 check to actually cast the spell).
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Re: Remove the Oddity of generated Teleport Scrolls

Unread post by Steve »

DaloLorn wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 7:04 am Still 27, because the CL is a separate 2DA column with no bearing on the cost of having the spell on an item. :P We could, if we so desired, have a CL50 Teleport scroll cost 20gp and therefore have a UMD minimum of 13 (though it would still need a DC30 check to actually cast the spell).
So essentially, generated Teleport scrolls need to have their BGTSCC server specific cost (price) brought down to a value (X gp) that then puts their restriction use in the same UMD value as all other Level 5 spells.

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Re: Remove the Oddity of generated Teleport Scrolls

Unread post by Snarfy »

DaloLorn wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 4:59 am You did not, in fact, fail to read the scroll at any point. (Nor was it physically possible for you to do so, given that you'd raised your UMD to 29, not 25.)
I got UMD to 25 by using bard song only, omitting gr. heroism, the scroll was red. I didn't really see the point in taking a screenshot for that, was just replying to earlier posts.
DaloLorn wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 4:59 am Either way, cross-realm teleportation seriously hikes up the teleport DC, and only the most dedicated conjurers have thus far proven capable of reliably (if at all) performing such feats, whether by scroll or by spell.
I was trying to go from Mist Lake to the little inbetween map that you end up at if you fail the survival check at that transition that goes from under to upperdark, so yeah that was probably part of it.

Regardless, passing 6 UMD rolls (and maybe another 6 4 more on the next 3 2 "fails". I didn't SS) only to have the standard check repeatedly fail, bleh. The purple standard check DC's were all over the place too, 41, 31, 30 (and 37, and 32, I checked my logs)? Very confusing. Good to know the multiple UMD rolls is not normal, this particular character is the only one I notice it happening to.
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Re: Remove the Oddity of generated Teleport Scrolls

Unread post by Kitunenotsume »

Just keeping an eyeball on this:
Is there a substantive staff/dev objection to a change in iprp_spells.2da to:
  • reducing the CL of Teleport to 9 (down from 18)
  • reduce the CL of Greater Teleport to 13 (down from 20)
  • an appropriate recalculation of their base values to reflect
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Ask about our Breadflower daily special to save five coppers off a purchase of five pastries.
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