Serpent Hill Trail - Dispells from Yu-Anti Fighters

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Touri
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Serpent Hill Trail - Dispells from Yu-Anti Fighters

Unread post by Touri »

If you kill the fighter like halfbloods, they spawn a fullblood yu-anti that immeadietely casts a dispel magic that often dispells all your buffs. The cl of the dispell is very high so even my monk with 35 sr can't really avoid it. Dynamic enemies that lvl with you already make the SR of non pure monks almost useless against mages in High CR areas in my opinion. Is it possible to lower the casterlevel? I am okay getting dipelled by high class level mages but if fightertype guys have dispel magic lvl 20+, than I think it is not fair. Also they metagame as they only use dispell when you are an able target to dispel magic no matter is the spell is visual or not.
It has no effect except that I have to rebuff wich only costs fun, time and gold. I suggest to lower it some or get completly rid off that dispel magic casting fighters. Also the Yu-anti Archers use it. It is just too much dispel magic. There is a reason most fighters or hybrids go to the Reaching Woods, as there is no dispelling at all.

http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Spell_resistance
Caster: 1d20 + Caster Level + Feats + Bonus for Assay Resistance
Defender: Spell Resistance amount + penalties to spell resistance
If I am not wrong most dispel magic scrolls or items have like CL15. That would mean it would be 1d20 +15 =35 vs sr 35 and I would be fine.
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Re: Serpent Hill Trail - Dispells from Yu-Anti Fighters

Unread post by Born2BeWild »

sr won't do anything agains dispels since they don't have sr check, only caster lvl will save you(caster lvl capped based on dispel+1d20 vs 11+your caster lvl). This area got 3 different dispels
1)lesser dispel from that fighters (5 caster lvl max) you will be fine with 15 caster lvl vs that
2)dispel from archers(15 cl max), i don't know their caster lvl if they got 15 then you need 25 caster lvl to be safe
3)great ones from guardians(20 cl max), idk about their caster lvl again so maybe you need 30 caster lvl
Also there is theurges with breach
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Touri
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Re: Serpent Hill Trail - Dispells from Yu-Anti Fighters

Unread post by Touri »

Image
My ingame discription of the spell says so and I can confirm that it works sometimes. That was why I wondered.
Last edited by Touri on Thu Mar 15, 2018 11:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Serpent Hill Trail - Dispells from Yu-Anti Fighters

Unread post by Lockonnow »

somtime my fighter do a fast hit and hit them so he dosent cast the spell disspel that chance you have to
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Touri
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Re: Serpent Hill Trail - Dispells from Yu-Anti Fighters

Unread post by Touri »

Yeah, Lockonnow.

I always try to knock em down or hit em as fast as I can, but in party fights ou can't be everywhere. I try all tricks to not getting dispelled.

:D
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Re: Serpent Hill Trail - Dispells from Yu-Anti Fighters

Unread post by Lockonnow »

you just need to get those that cast dispell magic when they change dont move couse when they stand to cast the spell there is chance you can hit them if you dont move
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Re: Serpent Hill Trail - Dispells from Yu-Anti Fighters

Unread post by Sapper Woody »

As was previously mentioned, SR doesn't come into play against dispels. It is a CL vs CL check. So most wands and potions will get dispelled easily.

Here is the description of a regular dispel (not lesser or greater):
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Dispel Magic attempts to strip all the magical effects on the target. If used on an area then it attempts to remove the most powerful spell of each creature. The dispel check is 1d20 + 1 per caster level (to a maximum of +10) versus 11 + spell effect's caster level.
So, if a level 20 casts the dispel, it will be a 1d20+10 vs your ward. Your ward will be 11+CL of the wand or Caster. Since wands can only go up to level 4 spells, that's a level 7 CL max, so 18 max.

This means that the level 20 casting a regular dispel will dispel a wand 60% of the time (more for lower spell wands).

This is why a caster needs to be 30CL to avoid any dispels cast at them. The most a greater dispel can roll is 40, while a 30CL caster's wards are at a DC of 41.
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Re: Serpent Hill Trail - Dispells from Yu-Anti Fighters

Unread post by chad878262 »

Note that the caps for Dispel and Greater Dispel are increased on BGtSCC. Vanilla is capped at +10, but on BGtSCC Dispel cap is +15 while Greater Dispel is +20. So caster level 15 is immune to lesser dispel, caster level 25 caster is immune to Dispel and caster level 30 is immune to Greater Dispel. There is no cap on mords dispel, which is where having a CL above 30 can be nice for buffs in addition to the well known benefit of adding to DC. However, this benefit is limited since the Breach is going to strip a decent amount of important wards no matter what.

As to Dispels in general, there has been some discussion at various times around if dispels have been lessened by too large a degree, while others argue they are too frequent. Based on my experiences in most area's of the server dispels could stand to be increased a bit, but in a few area's, like Serpent Hills they are too frequent. On the one hand this is ok because it adds diversity, but on the other, it generally just leads players to going to a different area. Issue being that an appropriate CR Caster, let's say level 21 does not have a fair shot because of the way dispels work and the way the dice work in the engine. Every single Dispel is likely to strip at least 1 or 2 wards, while Greater Dispel is very likely to strip half of them. (DC is 11+21=32, so Dispel needs a 17 or higher on the d20 roll while Greater Dispel needs a 12 or higher).

The basic issue is that dispel mechanics (and all mechanics, really) within D&D 3.5 are designed around PnP play. In PnP you have a party of adventurers that may have half a dozen to a dozen encounters between rests. In NWN2 and BGtSCC you will have more than double that number of encounters, though mostly with smaller groups. These smaller groups have not only maxed HP based on hit dice, but actually have increased hit points on top of what they should have. So spell economy is skewed for server play in comparison to PnP, making long term buffs, Save or X, Summons/Dominated spells, Polymorph/Shapechange and Cloud spells more powerful while direct damage/AoE spells are less so.

Basically all of this is to say that unless someone comes up with a brilliant plan on how to make encounters more like PnP (which would likely require a change to every area of the server), players have to learn how to utilize spells and protect against dispels based on the mechanics of the NWN2 engine and the design of this server. Specifically for dispels there are a few options.

- HiPS (for example, when I am fighting one of those Yuan-Ti that transforms on death with a character that has HiPS, I make sure not to have HiPS on cooldown even if it takes longer to kill them, specifically so I can avoid the dispel.

- Don't use buffs that you can't replace often

- Don't kill those mobs, either find a way to disable and leave them there, or use haste/expeditious retreat to run past them.

- Find a Master Alchemist... It may be a bit more expensive, but if there is a certain key buff or two you want/need, it might be cheaper to get a CL30 elixir that can't be dispelled. (but this only works if there aren't casters/traps that will breach you or if the ward you are looking for isn't on the breach list). ***Shameless plug, Tarent Nefzen would certainly love to be dusted off if there was more of an interest in Elixirs!***

- Wand or potions of Invis - They are faster than spells so with good timing they are about like having HiPS, and may be cheaper than replacing the wards from your other wands/potions/scrolls that would be dispelled.

- As you already mentioned, with good timing you may be able to Knockdown or land a hit to disrupt the dispel.

- Wand of Silence - Use on the ground as soon as you kill the first iteration so when the second spawns, it does so in a silenced area.

There are likely other tactics you can try, but the above have worked for me with different build types I have used in Serpent Hills specifically. Good luck Touri and others!
Chord Silverstrings - Bard and OSR Squire / Tarent Nefzen - Arcane Wand Merchant and Master Alchemist / Irrace Arkentlar - Drow Adventurer / Finneaus Du'Veil - Gem Merchant and Executive Officer of SCCE

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izzul
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Re: Serpent Hill Trail - Dispells from Yu-Anti Fighters

Unread post by izzul »

chad878262 wrote:Note that the caps for Dispel and Greater Dispel are increased on BGtSCC. Vanilla is capped at +10, but on BGtSCC Dispel cap is +15 while Greater Dispel is +20. So caster level 15 is immune to lesser dispel, caster level 25 caster is immune to Dispel and caster level 30 is immune to Greater Dispel. There is no cap on mords dispel, which is where having a CL above 30 can be nice for buffs in addition to the well known benefit of adding to DC. However, this benefit is limited since the Breach is going to strip a decent amount of important wards no matter what.

As to Dispels in general, there has been some discussion at various times around if dispels have been lessened by too large a degree, while others argue they are too frequent. Based on my experiences in most area's of the server dispels could stand to be increased a bit, but in a few area's, like Serpent Hills they are too frequent. On the one hand this is ok because it adds diversity, but on the other, it generally just leads players to going to a different area. Issue being that an appropriate CR Caster, let's say level 21 does not have a fair shot because of the way dispels work and the way the dice work in the engine. Every single Dispel is likely to strip at least 1 or 2 wards, while Greater Dispel is very likely to strip half of them. (DC is 11+21=32, so Dispel needs a 17 or higher on the d20 roll while Greater Dispel needs a 12 or higher).

The basic issue is that dispel mechanics (and all mechanics, really) within D&D 3.5 are designed around PnP play. In PnP you have a party of adventurers that may have half a dozen to a dozen encounters between rests. In NWN2 and BGtSCC you will have more than double that number of encounters, though mostly with smaller groups. These smaller groups have not only maxed HP based on hit dice, but actually have increased hit points on top of what they should have. So spell economy is skewed for server play in comparison to PnP, making long term buffs, Save or X, Summons/Dominated spells, Polymorph/Shapechange and Cloud spells more powerful while direct damage/AoE spells are less so.

Basically all of this is to say that unless someone comes up with a brilliant plan on how to make encounters more like PnP (which would likely require a change to every area of the server), players have to learn how to utilize spells and protect against dispels based on the mechanics of the NWN2 engine and the design of this server. Specifically for dispels there are a few options.

- HiPS (for example, when I am fighting one of those Yuan-Ti that transforms on death with a character that has HiPS, I make sure not to have HiPS on cooldown even if it takes longer to kill them, specifically so I can avoid the dispel.

- Don't use buffs that you can't replace often

- Don't kill those mobs, either find a way to disable and leave them there, or use haste/expeditious retreat to run past them.

- Find a Master Alchemist... It may be a bit more expensive, but if there is a certain key buff or two you want/need, it might be cheaper to get a CL30 elixir that can't be dispelled. (but this only works if there aren't casters/traps that will breach you or if the ward you are looking for isn't on the breach list). ***Shameless plug, Tarent Nefzen would certainly love to be dusted off if there was more of an interest in Elixirs!***

- Wand or potions of Invis - They are faster than spells so with good timing they are about like having HiPS, and may be cheaper than replacing the wards from your other wands/potions/scrolls that would be dispelled.

- As you already mentioned, with good timing you may be able to Knockdown or land a hit to disrupt the dispel.

- Wand of Silence - Use on the ground as soon as you kill the first iteration so when the second spawns, it does so in a silenced area.

There are likely other tactics you can try, but the above have worked for me with different build types I have used in Serpent Hills specifically. Good luck Touri and others!
Awesome tip Chad. thank you :eusa-pray:
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Re: Serpent Hill Trail - Dispells from Yu-Anti Fighters

Unread post by Hoihe »

chad878262 wrote:Note that the caps for Dispel and Greater Dispel are increased on BGtSCC. Vanilla is capped at +10, but on BGtSCC Dispel cap is +15 while Greater Dispel is +20. So caster level 15 is immune to lesser dispel, caster level 25 caster is immune to Dispel and caster level 30 is immune to Greater Dispel. There is no cap on mords dispel, which is where having a CL above 30 can be nice for buffs in addition to the well known benefit of adding to DC. However, this benefit is limited since the Breach is going to strip a decent amount of important wards no matter what.

As to Dispels in general, there has been some discussion at various times around if dispels have been lessened by too large a degree, while others argue they are too frequent. Based on my experiences in most area's of the server dispels could stand to be increased a bit, but in a few area's, like Serpent Hills they are too frequent. On the one hand this is ok because it adds diversity, but on the other, it generally just leads players to going to a different area. Issue being that an appropriate CR Caster, let's say level 21 does not have a fair shot because of the way dispels work and the way the dice work in the engine. Every single Dispel is likely to strip at least 1 or 2 wards, while Greater Dispel is very likely to strip half of them. (DC is 11+21=32, so Dispel needs a 17 or higher on the d20 roll while Greater Dispel needs a 12 or higher).

The basic issue is that dispel mechanics (and all mechanics, really) within D&D 3.5 are designed around PnP play. In PnP you have a party of adventurers that may have half a dozen to a dozen encounters between rests. In NWN2 and BGtSCC you will have more than double that number of encounters, though mostly with smaller groups. These smaller groups have not only maxed HP based on hit dice, but actually have increased hit points on top of what they should have. So spell economy is skewed for server play in comparison to PnP, making long term buffs, Save or X, Summons/Dominated spells, Polymorph/Shapechange and Cloud spells more powerful while direct damage/AoE spells are less so.

Basically all of this is to say that unless someone comes up with a brilliant plan on how to make encounters more like PnP (which would likely require a change to every area of the server), players have to learn how to utilize spells and protect against dispels based on the mechanics of the NWN2 engine and the design of this server. Specifically for dispels there are a few options.

- HiPS (for example, when I am fighting one of those Yuan-Ti that transforms on death with a character that has HiPS, I make sure not to have HiPS on cooldown even if it takes longer to kill them, specifically so I can avoid the dispel.

- Don't use buffs that you can't replace often

- Don't kill those mobs, either find a way to disable and leave them there, or use haste/expeditious retreat to run past them.

- Find a Master Alchemist... It may be a bit more expensive, but if there is a certain key buff or two you want/need, it might be cheaper to get a CL30 elixir that can't be dispelled. (but this only works if there aren't casters/traps that will breach you or if the ward you are looking for isn't on the breach list). ***Shameless plug, Tarent Nefzen would certainly love to be dusted off if there was more of an interest in Elixirs!***

- Wand or potions of Invis - They are faster than spells so with good timing they are about like having HiPS, and may be cheaper than replacing the wards from your other wands/potions/scrolls that would be dispelled.

- As you already mentioned, with good timing you may be able to Knockdown or land a hit to disrupt the dispel.

- Wand of Silence - Use on the ground as soon as you kill the first iteration so when the second spawns, it does so in a silenced area.

There are likely other tactics you can try, but the above have worked for me with different build types I have used in Serpent Hills specifically. Good luck Touri and others!

Removing dispels from those creatures not supposed to have dispels (like the fighters mentioned) is a good start.

Also would be keeping in mind that mobs don't need to conserve spells. As in, make even casters with dispels in their spellbooks a rare occurance.
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Re: Serpent Hill Trail - Dispells from Yu-Anti Fighters

Unread post by chad878262 »

Hoihe wrote:Also would be keeping in mind that mobs don't need to conserve spells. As in, make even casters with dispels in their spellbooks a rare occurance.
I believe this is how the occurrence of dispels was lowered in other areas of the server actually (simply making two or more versions of spell books for caster mobs, so that not all casters spawn being able to throw a dispel).

If it is desired to reduce the number of dispel mobs you've got your work cut out for you, as I said, there are those that would prefer we INCREASE their numbers... I wish you luck!
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Re: Serpent Hill Trail - Dispells from Yu-Anti Fighters

Unread post by Touri »

Yes, thank you for the tips. I have used most of it myself. I was just confused because of my ingame description.

Anyway, I tested it again and got dispelled easily by a hobgoblin in the High Moor while resisting other spells. The only strange thing was that at the low lvl maps they didn't even try to dispel me. I tried the Orc Mystics in the Sharpteeth and the Skeleton Mages at the FOD. I only used potions with low cl like shield and barkskin.
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