Talk of Lolthite area before 2018?

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Mash
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Re: Talk of Lolthite area before 2018?

Unread post by Mash » Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:12 pm

My opinion tends to the same direction as Ithilan's. I have a question for the experienced drow players:

What kind of meaningful regular interaction do you suppose could happen between the UD and the surface? Would it be better with a second Lloth city?

Due to the nature of the drow, in my experience it's most often the occasional raiding PvP or abductions. Which as mentioned, escalates quickly and stops being fun because you cannot kill PCs that regularly. Due to the open and instant hostility between the factions and the fact that neither side can really win deceisivly without some PCs getting killed, there is only limited potential in that in my opinion. I don't know that much about Sshamath, but I figure that at least it has the chance to not be as hostile as a Lloth city would.
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Re: Talk of Lolthite area before 2018?

Unread post by Tsidkenu » Fri Jan 04, 2019 5:54 pm

Surface raids by 'Lolthite cities' are the purview of the hunter classes collecting sentient beings for sacrifice to Lolth and/or slavery. Otherwise Lolth has very little interest in allowing her faithful to return to the surface at all and is far more content having them in a state of perpetual infighting.

In terms of Sshamath, interests in the surface would be far more likely to be aligned with trade (both material and immaterial goods) and/or arcane research/acquisition so non-hostile surface-UD RP opportunities already exist there for those willing to make the effort. Sshamath's relationship with Darkhold should be at the centre of such efforts.
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Re: Talk of Lolthite area before 2018?

Unread post by Ithilan » Fri Jan 04, 2019 6:08 pm

Tsidkenu wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 5:54 pm
Surface raids by 'Lolthite cities' are the purview of the hunter classes collecting sentient beings for sacrifice to Lolth and/or slavery. Otherwise Lolth has very little interest in allowing her faithful to return to the surface at all and is far more content having them in a state of perpetual infighting.
My point exactly and hence why it surprises me how Llothites are always the raiders and not for enslavement purposes or sacrifices, just.. sight seeing and PvP mongering ;)
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Re: Talk of Lolthite area before 2018?

Unread post by Tekill » Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:24 am

Great thread. I can not really disagree with any points anyone has made here.

-A Lolthite area/city/section. I love Lolthite RP. Great idea.
I think it would promote UD RP, especially if you really make an effort to create and foster that culture. I personally envision a heavy Salvatore influence. It would require work and teamwork and not everyone gets to be a Favored Soul Matron Mother (har har). It would need a lot of organization...not very likely for that CE crew, but perhaps some OOC organizing of the society itself.
I think it would mean the surface and UD would still need to be fairly segregated. The racism and seething hatred that would properly be fostered could make things a bit messy pvp wise. I can't see many organically created opportunities for a matron mother, or Lolthite priestess to want to consult with a human. Sure there some, but not really...

-It was interesting to hear about the attempts to DM in the UD. I can now see how difficult it would be, to not DM the same six people every day.

The alternative would be to find ways to desegregate the UD and surface, as mentioned by Ithilan. I would say this is probably the best idea. You may have 45 players on at any one time. 40 of them have no reason to make any contact with the remaining 5 (being generous) players. So how do we desegregate the surface from the UD?

As suggested, we could just scrap Sshamath or even the UD altogether. The space can be used for access to the larger server population. Logically, that is a sound option. Right now there is a very large area set aside for a small handful of players.

-Create surface areas for lore appropriate drow....but wait, what about the Svirfs?!
We keep Rockrun right?
It could work. Perhaps the upperdark and large patches of the surface for the non Chaotic Evil Lolthite type Drow.
-Use the remaining space freed up as desired.

All these points were mentioned earlier, and at this point they all work for me. But something should be done, as it sort of broken as is. We can look at a more traditional Drow environment, or create ways to desegregate the surface and UD.

-I would like also like to RP a mindflayer please. This was not a previously mentioned great point by the other posters in this thread, but I thought I should add my great point as well. If you give me the chance to suck your brains out of your face, I promise to make the UD great again!
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Re: Talk of Lolthite area before 2018?

Unread post by Darker_Thought » Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:14 am

There are many valids points brought up here. What we all ought to remember is that no matter which faction, race or alignment you play we are all under the same server rules regarding pvp. If all of us just played out our characters without any OOC regard we would see alot more chaotic pvp at the surface as well. But we try to act as an community and though being at opposite sides we want the server as a whole to be a fun experience. Furthermore, Lolthian players already exist on this server and creating one or two areas where we might rp out that society in greater messure won't affect the surface negatively with some sort of revolution of pvp-mongerers running around killing everyone. What it will give however, is a place where we who wish to roleplay Lolthian lore and goverment can have a place of our own to branch out on the potential rp of drow.

It all comes down to the foundation laid, server rules upheld and IC reasons for staying (though disliked) in a truce with e.g. Sshamath. If Szith would be a viable option it would be a smaller outpost reliant on trade as much as Sshamath. It could be a good IG reason where perhaps the Lolthian outpost would have a working but reluctant reliance on the goods of Sshamath hence upholding a truce. (Details would need to be worked out but this is absolutely viable).
Tekill wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:24 am
Great thread. I can not really disagree with any points anyone has made here.

-A Lolthite area/city/section. I love Lolthite RP. Great idea.
I think it would promote UD RP, especially if you really make an effort to create and foster that culture. I personally envision a heavy Salvatore influence. It would require work and teamwork and not everyone gets to be a Favored Soul Matron Mother (har har). It would need a lot of organization...not very likely for that CE crew, but perhaps some OOC organizing of the society itself.
I think it would mean the surface and UD would still need to be fairly segregated. The racism and seething hatred that would properly be fostered could make things a bit messy pvp wise. I can't see many organically created opportunities for a matron mother, or Lolthite priestess to want to consult with a human. Sure there some, but not really...
Yes this is a viable point. There's alot of players online still I know from both older servers and the first years of Baldurs Gate who doesn't feel theres a place for them in the UD. The roleplay is just not compatible. The Server of Baldur's Gate is supoosed to be a place for all of us. Where we tend to all branche's of the roleplay community and try to make this game an amazing roleplay experience for all of us.


Maecius wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 6:11 pm
At the moment nobody is actively working on it. It's possible someone may want to pick it up though!

A small city with one or two maps (a "Beregost" for the Underdark, for example) may drive a little bit of RP and give people places to play if they're anti-Conclave or otherwise not fans of Sshamath's culture and strange political climate (males? important?!).

I firmly believe that with enough preparation, rules and the creation of our own area there will be new life blown into the UD in this specific section of Underdark roleplay.

Still however, I would like to hear the Administration's view on this. Practicall requirements, concerns and criterias that would make this reality. Don't count us out just yet. I remember when the Order of The Silver Rose and The House of Mori'hyanda and Dev'lin had some amazing encounters with great roleplay (Due to they were coordinated by both parties oocly). Giving the Lolthian's a place of their own increasing interest in this part of the UD rp have potential for all of uss, if not at the least for us actually just wanting an area where our rp is undisturbed. Ive been at this since 2008 on three servers in total and I say it absolutely has the potential to bring benefits.
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Re: Talk of Lolthite area before 2018?

Unread post by KOPOJIbPAKOB » Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:57 am

I still don't get why some people claim bgtscc has no place for lolthites. Ssshamath as it is provides opportunity for just ANY kind of RP and for any races and factions (and lolthites too), and that's what I like about it. Lolthites have a huge freedom of actions in Sshamath (much more than, let's say, tanrukks). I still see many-many UD characters treating lolthites with great respect by default (not for their achievements) or at least making illusion of it, and branding them unplayable only because the whole population of the UD is not obliged to cower infront of yet another drow priestess of Lolth is at least strange. I'd say again — Sshamath has place for everyone, and I am more than certain that a passionate group of lolthite roleplayers can make it much more traditional and totalitarian in several months.

Back to the topic, I already see such area having much less RP opportunities than even specific places like Uruk Lurra. If you combine overly high RP requirements and strict traditional drow commons with server anti-slavery rules you'll see that this new lolthite area would basically be a drow only (no, even drow of specific mindset only) pot where they brew alltogether with other lolthites such as themseles and no interractions with the outer world (except occasional captives). UD unstable population is also to be kept in mind, because sometimes even Sshamath stays empty for weeks or even months. And yes, all the titanic effort required to build this area.

Honestly, in my opinion the best way to make this happen is to actually start playing lolthites, putting so much dedication into it that your action will scream "We must have our own city with yathrins and spider altars" louder than any forum posts, that sounds fair to me and gives you bigger chances of actually having a traditional drow city someday.

p.s. I am not against the idea itself (I fully support adding more UD areas), I'm just thinking real. Or trying to.
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Re: Talk of Lolthite area before 2018?

Unread post by ScreechOwl » Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:09 am

Simply put ... -any- attempt of putting together and running a true Lolthite Que'llar in or immediately around Sshamath will eventually meet the same fate as the Dev'lin Que'llar. The city will rise up and destroy / absorb it. Which is not against lore and makes for a lot of good RP along its journey, but at the same time thwarts the efforts of the Lolthians to grow as a whole.

Sshamath is a city of trade, and even though all drow have some dependence on that, Sshamath runs completely against drow society as a whole. It's a place where Matrons do not scheme and compete for status and power, but rather males have equal rights, simply because they have strong magics. While I understand and do not disagree that Sshmath is a way to down play true drow society on the server and thus making it easier to stifle conflict and all the OOC headaches DMS face because of it, it makes it hard for those who wish to be a -true- drow.

Most have no idea how many surfacers come down to Sshamath and strut around like they rule the place, showing absolutely no respect for the locals which even in Sshamath, lore wise, would mean instant death and or imprisonment and discipline (ie .. fines, penalties, public floggings) to the offending surfacers.

I am one of the worlds worst when it comes to pvp both because I don't personally care for it and because I simply am a terrible strategist when it comes to using my fighting skills, but there are -way- too many people out there who love to run their mouth, showing complete disrespect and disregard of others characters and expect no repercussions because they can hide behind the server rules. Don't get me wrong ... I know why the server rules are there and back them fully!

The drow players are not unlike the "evil" surface factions though and when played properly the natural conflict between such brings on a lot of great RP for all. What goodie goodie out there does not at one time or another -want- to be kidnapped? or worse at one time or another.

If the server catered only to the "good" factions, it would get pretty boring pretty fast.

Anyways, I am rambling now, sorry. In short I personally would -love- to see even a small area set aside for Lolthite rule.

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Re: Talk of Lolthite area before 2018?

Unread post by Ravial » Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:21 am

I have to say, I actually quite agree with KOPOJbPAKOB here. Sshamath already has working space for them, a temple and even political sides that can support lolthites within the City of Dark Weavings. Sure, Lolthites aren't a rulling caste and likely will never be, due to the Conclave being what it is, however doesn't that make the entire premise of the setting more intrigue-oriented? When you're ruling from get go, then it always seemed to me like the only thing most focus on is raining down punishment on everyone who's not in the ruling caste and that's it. I can't say I see any attraction to a setting where you're punished for mere existence, just 'cause some female drow has a whim for that. Sure, it's an FR reality. I just don't see the appeal for that :P Not only, to me, it would get boring in the long run but also tiring.

UD could indeed use more areas. And more "open faced" ones, so to speak. The endless, gray tunnels of caverns are hyper depressing and boring to play in for a long time.

Also, if I remember correctly from the time I was playing in Underdark... wasn't it Dev'lin's fault to have been brought to being kicked down? I mean, they did attack the city on their own whim, so the city had grounds to simply retaliate. I don't want to jab at anyone here, but I think that's one of the problems when it comes to arguments of "Lolthites are mistreated" or the like. Most of the time I've seen anything like that was due to their own doing onto themselves, because every once in a while someone rises up thinking they can, alone, take in the whole city and maybe make themselves, seemingly, martyrs. It just doesn't work for any drow, I think.
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Re: Talk of Lolthite area before 2018?

Unread post by Darker_Thought » Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:46 pm

Ravial wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:21 am
I have to say, I actually quite agree with KOPOJbPAKOB here. Sshamath already has working space for them, a temple and even political sides that can support lolthites within the City of Dark Weavings. Sure, Lolthites aren't a rulling caste and likely will never be, due to the Conclave being what it is, however doesn't that make the entire premise of the setting more intrigue-oriented? When you're ruling from get go, then it always seemed to me like the only thing most focus on is raining down punishment on everyone who's not in the ruling caste and that's it. I can't say I see any attraction to a setting where you're punished for mere existence, just 'cause some female drow has a whim for that. Sure, it's an FR reality. I just don't see the appeal for that :P Not only, to me, it would get boring in the long run but also tiring.

UD could indeed use more areas. And more "open faced" ones, so to speak. The endless, gray tunnels of caverns are hyper depressing and boring to play in for a long time.

Also, if I remember correctly from the time I was playing in Underdark... wasn't it Dev'lin's fault to have been brought to being kicked down? I mean, they did attack the city on their own whim, so the city had grounds to simply retaliate. I don't want to jab at anyone here, but I think that's one of the problems when it comes to arguments of "Lolthites are mistreated" or the like. Most of the time I've seen anything like that was due to their own doing onto themselves, because every once in a while someone rises up thinking they can, alone, take in the whole city and maybe make themselves, seemingly, martyrs. It just doesn't work for any drow, I think.
Not to get to far off topic but just to make it clear:

1. Many of the old members of Dev'lin distanced themselves from how the player who was active at the time took it upon him/her to go on some sort of suicide attack against Sshamath. I agree wholeheartadly that it was, in my opinion, poor judgement. Eather way what's done is done there but please do not use that as a template for how Lolthians are percieved.

2. To just put a Lolthian altar in Sshamath saying that it is now open for all kinds of roleplay isn't making it a viable place for actually roleplaying a lolthian drow. If you are read up on Lolthian lore, government, society and culture then you know that having surface characters running freely all over, and no Yath to speak of limits any potential for roleplay greatly. As Maecius said, a 2 area city could be a great compliment if allowed.
You who want to play the Unique factions of Sshamath go for it. I'm all for it. But I can say from 10 years experience of playing drow that there is a very limited ability to play a Lolthian in a city flooded by more surface characters than drow, male hierarchy and no yath to speak of. Giving the players who want to branch out and rp the greater extent of Lolthian society will give us a chance to explore and reccurect new roleplay if done well.

Also we are a big part of the UD population and should be properly represented :) -> viewtopic.php?f=451&t=62034

Still personally I think all opinions are welcome and I'm very happy that we all can make this conversation in a civilized manner even if some of us are opposed in opinion :)
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Re: Talk of Lolthite area before 2018?

Unread post by Bagnose » Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:50 pm

Can't say I've read the entire thread, but I'd like to chime in here.

As one of the founding members of the De'vlin's I can fully understand the frustration with Llothite players in trying to RP in Sshamath.
Most of my character vault is UD Drow, and most of them are not male wizards... lol... and most of them I have not played for a long, long time.
I for one would love to see the characters who worship Lloth have some sort of map/area where they are able to get together that isn't an altar in the middle of Sshamath. I agree with Darker-Thought (above comments) that it isn't a viable RP option (from experience) and while there CAN be RP in Sshamath and environs between Lloth worshipers and others, the Llothites need their own area - I like Maecius' suggestions.

I for one would be willing to commit time IG to furthering more UD RP with my Lloth-worshiping toons, knowing that there would be some accommodation between lore, and players wanting to have some fun with a Lloth-friendly area.

Thanks

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Re: Talk of Lolthite area before 2018?

Unread post by Israe » Sat Jan 05, 2019 5:36 pm

I'll of course commit to further Lolthite rp, as I've felt "railroaded" often being a Lolthite and dealing with Sshamath.

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Re: Talk of Lolthite area before 2018?

Unread post by Ithilan » Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:54 pm

Aspect of Sorrow wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:30 am
Eryndlyn is not a Lolthite 'only' city.
Just quoting this for good measure and I would like to emphasize that a Llothite specific establishment will only divide the UD population further imo.

With all due respect to our Llothite players and with great fondness of the concept and Qu'ellar based RP of Drow. She is a dominating and forceful entity, her followers are no less so. If you think a location of legitimate rule for the Yath is going to make it a smoother RP experience with less PvP confrontations, you are terribly wrong (IMO). Quite contrary in fact, if Llothites are suddenly enabled to play this oppressive kind of characters, it should escalate fairly quickly, in terms of confrontation with the other denizens of the Underdark. I dont see this as being any different to having a guild house for a Qu'ellar outside of Sshamath, except that this will be publicly available and I imagine the Yath wont hesitate to enforce their self perceived superiority on visitors.

Im not against a Lloth dominated area, but the UD we have on BG is not you're traditional FR setting UD, so it will eventually end in confrontation between players and if the RP develops as I would predict, Sshamath too.

Lloth is not exactly a compromising deity, neither is her followers, unleash that and it will end in conflict.

My problem with this is how often ive met groups in the UD, hellbend on PvPing and bashing some one in the ground. If this rather promoted intrigue and scheming, RP with a depth and purpose, id be all for it. But past experiences tell me we will have the usual tendencies of people huddling in groups and looking to express how "evil" they are by simply killing others and that is the most boring part of the UD.

In any case, a Lloth dominated city or outpost would allow for them to make a drum circle and flaunt their spider collections, it gives them no authority to enact Lloth's will beyond its confinements and this is where in lore terms, when they did, the Conclave should really not tolerate such unruly neighbors for long.

For me this would be a time bomb if its a Lloth dominated location, if it is as AoS wrote previously wrote; a mix of deities, then it no different to Sshamath, only that an open religious war would likely be common practice and the Llothites would still not have a haven to kiss their spider arses. :P

Id still much rather see an initiative towards making the UD and surface more intractable and the module less segmented.
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Re: Talk of Lolthite area before 2018?

Unread post by Kaeldre » Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:58 am

There are many very valid points being issued right, left and center in this thread. Unfortunately, I arrived late to the party so I can't blast you all with my opinion on everything (even if I would like to). Nevertheless, I will offer a piece of my mind to the discussion.

I think that the root of the 'Problem with Sshamath' is that it does not provide the unique experience of the Underdark that so many envision. Let me elaborate, before you people raise pitchforks and torches in protest. I strongly believe that a large part of the allure of the Underdark is that it is different. Not in the sense of environ, but in the sense of norm and tradition. Something which is deeply connected to the drow, since their culture is by far the most fleshed out of the Underdark races. However, it quickly becomes apparent that Sshamath is not a part of that culture. It is much more similar to the surface in the regards that it is open to any and all, which has been pointed out already. And while this may be a benefit, I also believe that it is a fault. Because the Underdark is not supposed to be like the Surface. It is supposed to harbor these cruel and sadistic races, and their culture with it. And while Sshamath may harbor the former, I feel it is lacking the latter.

In the end you have to ask yourself what Sshamath offers which the Surface does not in terms of RP. I would say very little, unfortunately. Which is where a small Lolthian city/outpost would shine so very bright. It would be a place that would feel different to the rest of the server. A place which can offer that unique experience that so many of us envision.

Splitting the scarce UD population is definitely a concern. However, it is also worth considering the fact that this might draw more people to the Underdark to compensate. Another idea would be to create a lolthite district within Sshamath, which would keep players centered but contribute towards the whole idea of promoting lolthite RP. Just a thought.
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Re: Talk of Lolthite area before 2018?

Unread post by Vagrant » Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:12 am

ARE LOLTHITES RELEVANT IN BGTSCC?


This is mixing oil and vinegar. It works for a while but time causes it to separate.

Captain Obvious Quote:
"Lolthite culture is a hyper-violent, conniving, menacing and very sharp medium to play in. Their very nature is to be backstabbing opportunists. Furthermore Drow Lolthites are, by their very nature, insane. This type of Underdark is a very difficult (and sometimes disturbing) setting to play in and sits at the most extreme point of a spectrum."

The server is Pg-13.

Oil & Vinegar.

What seems to be separating the main ideas in this thread revolves around Lolthite Society's relevance. So I will be at succinct as possible when I say;

Lolthites have no relevance in BGTSCC. :o

That's not my opinion, it is a fact. You can roll one up and your character will be relevant certainly. But being a Lolthite means nothing but pulling aggro against the entire server. Seeing how Lolthite society only thrives when it is the dominating one, quickly puts into perspective how pitiful choosing that deity (and expecting to thrive) is on this server. Keep in mind, I said thrive, not survive.

Sure, Lolth herself intervened on behalf of Sshamath and prevented its' destruction. Yes, there have been Qu'ellars built and viable at one time. Of course there have been pockets of great RP encounters with stray Lolthites and whatnot.

But where is it all now? Why does it matter beyond the fact that Sshamath survived?

It separated because the server is not a healthy place for a Lolthite dominated society. Even if a piece of the server space was carved out for that purpose. This style of play is not mainstream and is often regarded as a niche'. Which means a smaller proportion of players are into that extreme mode of role-play. Toss in time-zones and what not, well. . .you see where I am going.

Lolth and her followers aren't relevant or dominant enough to be relevant. They are more or less treated as a sideshow in Sshamath (Please see Exhibit A: Large mound of dirt in the Northeast corner of Sshamath that is referred to as a temple. Exhibit B: The other "temple" located in a bordello where Rivvil and Kivvin and Rothe are allowed to fornicate and mingle freely). Those things should be considered abominations to the true Yath. As if the city is going out of its' way to mocking and taunting Lolth's clergy.

What about thier presence on the surface? When they have a means or right to be there it is to execute as many surfacers as possible and/or return to the UD with sacrifices. Players uncomfortable with this style of play have a crass name for this, "PvP Mongering". Which isn't fair. This is a PvP server with enforceable Rp out policies. It is impossible to be a PvP monger if everyone is following the rules and keeping a cool head. With that said, mechanically if we go by the rules, Lolthites being what they are, once again find themselves severely hamstrung by the policies that protect those who are uncomfortable by physical/magical violence.

Therein lies another spectrum with two extremes which curiously correlate with the before-mentioned. Those who enjoy PvP and those to abhor it.

Another case of Oil and Vinegar. Don't get me wrong, I understand that some players (perhaps the greatest number) fall somewhere in the middle of the spectrum. I am one of them. ;)

My point is, in nearly every aspect of the server, Lolthites are at a severe disadvantage. If you try to play a Lolthite straight edge, then you are made opposition by everything and everyone that is not a Lolthite. Hell, even other Lolthites (if played correctly) are trying to gun you down one way or another.

Try to play a soft line with a Lolthite and it . . .well, why not just pick another diety? Drow Lolthites are supposed to be edgy, oppositional, sinister, conniving, cunning and hardcore.

Adding a special area for Lolthites will not solve the problem because the issue is not spacial/proximity in nature.

It is server rules and culture that retard a pure Lolthite experience. Which is what I feel is wanted here to a small extent. This is not necessarily a bad thing. The server is what it is. Choose to play by the rules and regulations. Or don't.

But certainly don't expect a problem to be solved by adding space when it is not related to that at all.

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As an aside, I am deeply in love with the UD, and a Underdark purist. I love Lolthite dominated cities and the strife, intrigue and Rp potential they bring. I would rather have that than Sshamath tbh. But that is not where I play.

Also, I am completely for re-appropriating neglected server space (I'm looking at you Rockrun) to the benefit of all. Whatever that means.

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chambordini
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Re: Talk of Lolthite area before 2018?

Unread post by chambordini » Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:41 am

All of the above arguments and discussions are actually fairly irrelevant, none of that matters, what matters is getting someone to do the work, if you want to see something specific in the server (if we can accommodate it within the confines of server resources, eg, server not crashing from too mucho memory usage) I'd tell you to apply for area dev but honestly, that's misrepresenting the nature of what you'd be doing, that making an entire city in the toolset with a richly hand crafted feel is somewhere in the few dozen hours to maybe even hundreds of hours of lonely and at at times frustrating toolset work.

Be prepared to be working on the toolset everyday for more than a few days to get it to a state where you can call it finished. Spending less time in game or watching netflix to create whatever it is you envision.

A very thankless process that if you're not super passionate about what you're doing, you'll be quitting on the first time you show a screenshot and someone tells you they don't like it :P

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