CLOSED - Remus (that Malarite) ANTI-PVP list and complaints.

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Slunko
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Re: Remus (that Malarite) ANTI-PVP list and complaints.

Unread post by Slunko » Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:31 pm

TarnishedSoul wrote:It may be little more than sheer coincidence, but you appeared to log off within a minute after a group of armed, warded PCs from Candlekeep arrived at The Lion's Way shortly after they were contacted with a report that Remus was prowling near the lighthouse.

It is my sincere hope that the timing only seemed suspicious and that you're fully willing to accept the consequences for your IC actions.

I've logged quite a bit after. I saw the group coming down the hill and ran to Cloakwood. I even left a dead elf behind me for you to find, so you could follow. That encounter led to ooc frustrations and the idea for creation of this topic.

EDIT; To avoid this sort of a thing happening in the future, I'm open to tells and forum MSGs. PM me next time, I'll swing back on. I know it can be hard to get such a group together.

EDIT2: As TS pointed out, I did not check the dates of the event, which means that this whole reply remains sort of pointless.
Last edited by Slunko on Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Remus (that Malarite) ANTI-PVP list and complaints.

Unread post by Slunko » Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:35 pm

Flasmix wrote:As someone who played a Malarite and knew others who did, I'm taking my DM Hat off here to speak about my experience;

None of them, including myself, based our existence around hunting PCs. In fact, we were planning a movement around Soubar to have Malarites be accepted. You know about the High Hunt, I presume? The holy day once per season where a sentient creature is hunted at night... Well, we had wanted to get willing participants to be hunted. Those who believed they were strong enough to survive a night against a pack of Malarites hunting them and if they survived, they'd be rewarded.

Even if you want to seek 'strong opponents' don't you find it odd that most complaints are coming out of lowbie areas like the Cloakwood or Sharpteeth Forest? Hell, why is it even PCs being hunted and not NPCs? That makes it look like a deliberate attempt to get into PvP with little to no RP other than 'I follow a God'. You don't see Bhaalist PCs just murdering people for Bhaal's sake.

To cut to the chase, Malarite RP can be a rewarding and amazing opportunity to discuss philosophy and evolution. Only the strongest are worthy of survival. I got out of it because it was very lonely, I got tired of being the only one and there were the rare few who would just PvP bait for fun and ruin it for those of us trying to RP it out.
I was hoping I'd meet you ingame actually, regarding that part. It sounds like a very interesting way to progress the characters RP.

...also I'd be open to reading the lore you've found on the High Hunt and such where volunteers would be acceptable to Malar.
Last edited by Slunko on Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Remus (that Malarite) ANTI-PVP list and complaints.

Unread post by TarnishedSoul » Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:44 pm

Slunko wrote:I've logged quite a bit after. I saw the group coming down the hill and ran to Cloakwood. I even left a dead elf behind me for you to find, so you could follow. That encounter led to ooc frustrations and the idea for creation of this topic.

EDIT; To avoid this sort of a thing happening in the future, I'm open to tells and forum MSGs. PM me next time, I'll swing back on. I know it can be hard to get such a group together.
As we briefly discussed in /tells, the incident you mentioned is not the one to which I refer. Ours happened on Saturday, whereas what you referenced happened... today, if I correctly understood.

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Re: Remus (that Malarite) ANTI-PVP list and complaints.

Unread post by Hoihe » Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:20 pm

Why not have the list be opt in rather than out?

Making it an opt out puts it as... "No, i don't want to participate in your character development and I don't want my character getting hurt" which can get turned into "These are the people incapable of dealing with consequences for their RP."

Even if that's not the intent, that's very much how it can feel like and be used for. And opt-in system would still have the risk of peer pressure, but much less so.

Personally, I'm of the stance that such antagonism is best suited as a DM antagonist, and even then limited in the amount of damage it can do to a character in an opt-in method ala DM Vukodlak's compartmentalization of his events in the level of detail and effects.

And furthermore, I'm of the stance that PvP should and must always leave the survival of the losing party the default option, with no permanent scarrings whether mental or physical. I.e.: No collecting trophies from the PC, no torture etc.

Emphasis on no permanent scarrings, be it physical or mental. I don't trust DMs with such, much less players. Vukodlak's the only fellow I opened to regarding mental scarring, and even he, running a Lovecraftian plotline, allowed its proper treatment with combination of time and spells.

For a middle ground of the above is the Baystation12 method. There was an antagonist event in a previous round that had great char development on your character? Replace the antagonist with a nameless person of the same gender/species, replace NSS Exodus/SEV Torch with some random off screen location. I.e.: The person you PvP'd and killed and defeated and ate the heart and whatnot is not John Doe, allowing John Doe to avoid having to deal with trauma and whatnot, while still allowing you to eat hearts.
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Re: Remus (that Malarite) ANTI-PVP list and complaints.

Unread post by MrPsion » Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:27 pm

Though I recently retired Hrogar due to build issues / not fully understanding the PRC I took, I really enjoyed the IC antagonism w/ the Skullpounders. I felt driven to prepare for battle and I also had a reason to talk to numerous PCs, which is good when you're newish on the server.

Go ahead and PVP me but please consider leaving it up to staff whether your behavior is in line with the rules. I think that IC antagonism can enrich the experience but also it is hard so just about anyone can improve w/ such collaboration.

Hoihe makes really good points about opt-in vs opt-out. We take cues on the boundaries of acceptable behavior based on what everyone else is doing.

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Re: Remus (that Malarite) ANTI-PVP list and complaints.

Unread post by Sapper Woody » Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:33 pm

Personally, I am perfectly fine with there being a predator out there that people need to take down. Disagreeing on the motivation is, to me, semantics. My character's encounter with the Malarite has generated a lot of RP, and has given another event in my character's life to develop my character further. Another point to which he can point and say, "This is why I <whatever>"

My encounter with Slunko was not unpleasant OOC. We were talking OOC, and he was even polite enough to ask if him dragging Rein off unconscious was interrupting anything before he did it.

In my case, the PvP intent was very clear. Two worgs were growling, then we were set to hostile, then there was an emote that the worgs were preparing to pounce. At any time, I could have taken the RP out. Almost did, honestly, but that would have been OOCly motivated, as I knew I was about to get my butt handed to me. So I stayed, because Rein would have.

Obviously, the IC action was unpleasant for my toon. But OOCly, the interaction was polite and tastefully done.

Edited to Add: I knew the character tortured his victims, and I was prepared to have to tell him it had gone to far. But the "torture" was simply and factually stated, and not drawn out. It was just "He did this". Wanted to point that out, that it was not a gruesome, drawn out narrative. Just enough to let you know what had occurred.
Last edited by Sapper Woody on Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Remus (that Malarite) ANTI-PVP list and complaints.

Unread post by Slunko » Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:37 pm

Hoihe wrote:
Hidden: show
Why not have the list be opt in rather than out?

Making it an opt out puts it as... "No, i don't want to participate in your character development and I don't want my character getting hurt" which can get turned into "These are the people incapable of dealing with consequences for their RP."

Even if that's not the intent, that's very much how it can feel like and be used for. And opt-in system would still have the risk of peer pressure, but much less so.

Personally, I'm of the stance that such antagonism is best suited as a DM antagonist, and even then limited in the amount of damage it can do to a character in an opt-in method ala DM Vukodlak's compartmentalization of his events in the level of detail and effects.

And furthermore, I'm of the stance that PvP should and must always leave the survival of the losing party the default option, with no permanent scarrings whether mental or physical. I.e.: No collecting trophies from the PC, no torture etc.

Emphasis on no permanent scarrings, be it physical or mental. I don't trust DMs with such, much less players. Vukodlak's the only fellow I opened to regarding mental scarring, and even he, running a Lovecraftian plotline, allowed its proper treatment with combination of time and spells.

For a middle ground of the above is the Baystation12 method. There was an antagonist event in a previous round that had great char development on your character? Replace the antagonist with a nameless person of the same gender/species, replace NSS Exodus/SEV Torch with some random off screen location. I.e.: The person you PvP'd and killed and defeated and ate the heart and whatnot is not John Doe, allowing John Doe to avoid having to deal with trauma and whatnot, while still allowing you to eat hearts.
A fine point regarding it seeming like peer pressure. It was dumb of me to tag a list under spoilers. I'd say it was more due to the thing being written in haste and I didn't put much thought to it. I've removed the list, so there's no chance of peer pressure regarding it.

I may quite likely add the opt-in list, which would be quite helpful to me (some names were already put forth, thank you.)


Thought form what I'm reading, it seems as if this server formally allows PVP and allows the creation of evil PCs, but then punishes that quite severely.
If this is how the majority of players feel, then my sort of a character concept has no place on the server. I always imagined Forgotten Realms as a cruel place with monsters lurking behind every corner, where heroes are just that, because they triumphed over that mortal danger.
But what I'm being shown here seems a much different version of that. A very much PC-world where conflicts are solved through diplomacy and kind words, rather than swords and spell.

There is a lot here to consider, among all of the replies. Keep them coming, they are helpful as I decide if it is worth keeping such RP up.

I am glad at least someone was not turned off by it, though!
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Re: Remus (that Malarite) ANTI-PVP list and complaints.

Unread post by Steve » Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:44 pm

Slunko wrote:A very much PC-world where conflicts are solved through diplomacy and kind words, rather than swords and spell.
Well, what were you thinking? Conflicts solved via sword and/or spell equal death, mate. But Death here is not a real thing, in terms of the chaotic uncontrollable version of Death we understand in Real Life. Death in this game is as diplomatic and conditional as the RP you outline in the front part of your statement.

The reason why the latter part of your statement never "solves" anything, is because the mechanics of this Game are pretty wack, and one has an incredible edge over another Character if your PC is 5+ levels difference. It isn't even Fair...and then, the question of whether the unfair aspect is even good sportsmanship!

Yeah, like Hoihe says: go for the inclusive aspect of RP hunting others...and if others are willing to be a part of your RP, then you can "let loose" as the Malar in your PC wishes to let loose. Otherwise, you'll end up just ganking other PCs because of mechanical power, which is pretty lame in the pursuit of good role-play.
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Re: Remus (that Malarite) ANTI-PVP list and complaints.

Unread post by Kaybrie » Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:50 pm

While I appreciate what you are doing and I love NWN2 PvP for its amazing potential to tell stories between players, create rivals and further character plots without the need to involve DM's. The PvP rules on BGtSCC make it a headache I'd rather not ever deal with.

I declined your PvP out of personal protest to the rules in place (the same I do to any PvP on the server nowadays) not out of some fear a characters well being.

If you're fine with dealing with the rules (which already seems to be tightening its noose around your neck) then you go guy~

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Re: Remus (that Malarite) ANTI-PVP list and complaints.

Unread post by ValerieJean » Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:05 pm

I can understand the sake of ease for stating Opt IN vs Opt OUT but does that not specifically state they they want nothing to do with the instance at all? In a word perhaps ignoring that it is actually happening? As to me wanting to Opt OUT would mean you want nothing to do with being harmed or having something happen to the character which can in a way build the character as well, or add more avenues of RP.

This in a way to me not wanting anything to happen to your character without your say so (Maiming, scars, mental physical etc stuff like that) is essentially god modding. Now I'm also presuming the party with that intent as informed they are doing XYZ. I am also fine with that hey they did XYZ but you were able to get a regenerate cast on you in time to leave no actual 'marks' by all means that's a fair compromise. But just to say hey ya you can do this and then have nothing to show for it? Be it mentally or physically is disheartening.

This should be understood as a possibility of happening in DM events, you never know what may happen. PCs can escalate certain instances on their own by this or that decision or action. So in a way you are telling the DMs who are attempting to help create XYZ story for you how to go about doing it if your char is involved.

I'm sorry but this is just a medium of PnP and if your char decided to barrel into a small room and decide to cast a large volatile spell at the monster? That DM is going to set the obvious actions in motion, cave ins most likely being the case, backlash etc. (saying you are underground)Say your character got a rock dropped on their arm, say crushed? Regenerate may be cast or you did not have anyone able to do it soon enough? To me you should have quite a bummed arm, or something which would denote you just had a hell of a time. You should not come out of that unscathed whatsoever. Now to some this may be an extreme case, and these are just my thoughts I am not forcing my RP wants upon any just giving my 2 cents.

In cases where I have say put down a char or something and find out later they are back alive or look as if nothing happened? I bite my tongue, unfortunately I have to as I cannot expect others to RP as I may.

Anyways! Hopefully this is not coming across too harsh or badly worded, I just wanted to throw in some cents. :D

(Also I am fine with being on the Opt IN list or whatever Slunko, even if others may believe it a poor reason for your char and there are other ways to RP. This is the route of the char and you've stated that you're open to it changing with the RP portrayed be it he being dropped or someone finding another way. )
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Re: Remus (that Malarite) ANTI-PVP list and complaints.

Unread post by Korchas » Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:24 pm

Just throwing my personal two cents in, as someone who was torn apart by your worg next to Woody's toon, I was totally fine with such happening knowing the...non-finiteness of it on both the server and in the world it is based in.
The result actually fit with my toon, evolved her and made her a bit more cautious and less gung-ho.
In that sense, I salute you, second basically all that Woody said and bid you a good hunt until we sometime get you!
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Re: Remus (that Malarite) ANTI-PVP list and complaints.

Unread post by SharpGn2 » Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:25 pm

As a 'victim' of an encounter with this character, and subject of the PvP being discussed, I'd like to toss in my few cents. Some of it is on the encounters with your character in particular – some of it is about PvP in general. So, let me focus on what has occurred between our characters so far. . .

. . . the two Worgs (I’ve been calling them wolves cause I can’t tell character models worth a crap) approached my character with very clear intent of hostility. Both IC and OOC, the intent was made clear, and being my first real PvP encounter, I wasn’t 110% sure I was doing everything properly. The only thing I will say that was a little vague was the RP out offer. I’m not claiming here it was done improperly or not offered. . . just that was the only thing I felt could have been done better. Granted, my character had no want to avoid the confrontation. She had her Elemental at the ready and was pretty confident so. . . 2.53 milliseconds later and downed, you proceeded to pm me about further RP and it was agreed upon.

The torture of Maurmeril was not rp’ed in any particularly gruesome or uncalled for fashion – at no point did I feel any rules were being broken. It was a consequence of trying to fight, and, from an OOC standpoint, I like that I was given so much freedom in the end to determine what happens next. OOC and IC at no point did I feel slighted or wronged. It was one of the less antagonistic and hurtful PvP experiences I’ve had in terms of OOC crap. So kudos to that.

HOWEVER, . . . there is something that I perceived to be an issue, and you are welcome to rebuttal – my concern comes with the second near-encounter, in which a member of Candlekeep spotted your character, and the Cavalry showed up – only for you to have logged shortly after. I have not heard one way or the other if this was simply a coincidence (and I had to read your edits in response to Tarnished to verify – would prefer a reply heh) but I’d prefer to make it very clear that, in the case it was a logging from fear of failure (I’m not accusing you – making that clear) . . . that is distasteful and would change my attitude in further PvP encounters with ANYONE. . .

PvP is, and always will be, a touchy subject because regardless of how experienced both parties are, regardless of intent, there is a tinge of meta and OOC that can be felt. This personally comes from my many many years playing NWN and NWN2 – it is an almost universal experience. So far, from what I’ve read, and your taking of criticisms and changing them, I think you are one of the more reasonable ‘evil’ and antagonistic PvP’ers. So with that said, I just recommend being very clear OOC in reminder of an RP out – and also be prepped for the consequence of the hunt! As long as you are good with this character facing hell and high water for what he’s doing, there shouldn’t be an issue.
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Re: Remus (that Malarite) ANTI-PVP list and complaints.

Unread post by Cenerae » Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:15 pm

If you're actually intending to get serious RP done with it, I think you should try putting yourself in the shoes of those you're attacking, and ask how you'd feel if your grind or RP session was interrupted in that abrupt manner. And then adjust your approach.

Some of us would like to actually RP as well, after all.

Belated edit - It sounds to me that you do the exact same thing to everyone, almost like you're working off a script, if other replies here are anything to go by. When I say 'give us a chance to RP as well' I refer to when you jumped myself and my grinding buddy and then ignored their obvious intent to try and intimidate you down from the fight. You went ahead and attacked anyway.

I get that you went to play an evil character and so on, and that's fine, but RP isn't just about your character, we all want to play ours as well. If your intent is not to come off as a mean spirited bully who does nothing but prey on lowbies for fun, then you need to communicate the actual intent OOCly. This is why I was so annoyed with you OOCly after the fact, because with the complete lack of communicated intent from you, I saw only two 'choose your own adventure' style choices - that of standing ground against a worg (which is reasonable, worgs are not THAT dangerous after all) and dying because that's what most characters would do with a lack of evidence to suggest they're in for it...or metagaming, breaking character, and running away.

You need to communicate this sort of thing better - I think you would have found me far more amenable to whatever you had in mind if you'd talked to me about it beforehand and put in some effort into the encounter.
Last edited by Cenerae on Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:42 am, edited 7 times in total.

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Re: Remus (that Malarite) ANTI-PVP list and complaints.

Unread post by NeOmega » Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:46 pm

Here is my proposal for a new PVP fanclub system:

https://www.bgtscc.net/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=63037

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Re: Remus (that Malarite) ANTI-PVP list and complaints.

Unread post by izzul » Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:49 am

Krueger wont mind being Ganked by two Worgs... (as long as you can reach to where he is usually hanging out)(or if he is too busy running around he might just pass by ignoring things)

so does my Drow..
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