The Wilds CR 20 - Stone Demons DC 29 Fear Aura

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Sun Wukong
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The Wilds CR 20 - Stone Demons DC 29 Fear Aura

Unread post by Sun Wukong »

The Wilds CR 20 - Stone Demons DC 29 Fear Aura

Lets take a level 30 fighter, which has base will save of 10, and whatever they get from items or constitution with Steadfast Determination. Let us assume that they get +10 above the base 10, which means there is still about 45% to fail on that Fear Aura saving throw. A coin toss and your character will flee until it gets stuck on a corner, and dies unable to do anything. And you better hope none of those Seveltarm Drider Clerics spaws close enough to start flinging their spells, because those buggers apparently have the Ogre Chieftain spell list.

Thus it makes it seem that this area was 'balanced' with EDM Favored Souls in mind, you know, in the hope that with their High Save Progression, Dark Blessing charisma modifier to their saves, and with +6 from Superior Resistance they might succumb to the fear effect of this aura. (Nevermind that they could just cast Protection from Alignment for a blanket immunity.)

Thus I feel that the DC of the above aura ought to be reduced, by maybe a 10 or more. Or alternatively, it should leave those who fail the save 'shaken' instead of panicked. Thus -2 AB, -2 to Saves, -2 to Skills.


I mean, the above is one good reason why everyone seems to go to Kro's Labyrinth, even when they got a caster to buff them up.
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KOPOJIbPAKOB
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Re: The Wilds CR 20 - Stone Demons DC 29 Fear Aura

Unread post by KOPOJIbPAKOB »

I travel there sometimes with the character who has even lower willsaves, but the fear triggered only 1 or 2 times totally in all my ventures. Actually, stone demon's damage return is much more dangerous for fighters than fear effect. Plus the fear effect itself is easy to counter (greater heroism potions of thayan merchant, for example).
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Sun Wukong
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Re: The Wilds CR 20 - Stone Demons DC 29 Fear Aura

Unread post by Sun Wukong »

Not everyone plays a Paladin/Dragon Warrior/Battlerager/Dragon Slayer for the Fear Immunity those classes grant.

Also, what is the price per bottle? Do those clerics still throw dispels?
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KOPOJIbPAKOB
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Re: The Wilds CR 20 - Stone Demons DC 29 Fear Aura

Unread post by KOPOJIbPAKOB »

Sun Wukong wrote:Not everyone plays a Paladin/Dragon Warrior/Battlerager/Dragon Slayer for the Fear Immunity those classes grant.

Also, what is the price per bottle? Do those clerics still throw dispels?
I don't play them either, my character has low will saves and I still don't have any issues with fear that triggers once per 10000 years. It is really weird that fear aura is op in your opinion, while about 15 damage returned to your face after each hit you make is not.
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Sun Wukong
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Re: The Wilds CR 20 - Stone Demons DC 29 Fear Aura

Unread post by Sun Wukong »

What is the damage type? Is it fire? Is due to the common Elemental Shield spell? I honestly cannot even approach Stone Demons because that aura with DC of 29 sends my character running. Then I am not sure if the Eriynes it summons has some aura of its own.
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Hoihe
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Re: The Wilds CR 20 - Stone Demons DC 29 Fear Aura

Unread post by Hoihe »

- wrote:
- wrote:So - we're talking about a CR 15 area, right?

Let's take a level 15 fighter then.
CR does not really mean that anyone of that level should be able to handle the area. There are multiple gotcahs, and some classes will be better suitable for certain areas, and less suitable for certain other areas.

Wyvern area is one of the worst locations where a melee fighter could possibly go, unless they're con based with steadfast determination. it is more suitable for ranged dattackers.
- wrote: I would be curious as to what level 15 builds can xp in this area with only limited threat,
Crossbow sniper assassin might be able to do that, if they got their hipsing gear. Another possibility is necromancer summoner.

Also, CR 15 is supposed to mean that it is for a party of four level 15 characters. Meaning a single character should only go there at level 17 or 18, like you said.

I think four level 15 characters in general should be able to handle the area without any issue.
-- wrote:I've been fighting the wyverns/efreets stone demons 4 times in the last week with my lv14 dwarf fighter (33AC) in a small group of 3. Never got poisoned or into much danger there.
We even farmed them for some time until we got bored.
[quote="---]i usually farm these wyverns.Stone Demons it takes a little more consideration to fight these. but if you follow some simple rules, wyverns Stone demons can be some of the easier mobs to kill at equal CR or better.
[/quote]

-- wrote:Shifted buffed druid, wyverns Stone Demons are a nice place to practice combat.

I agree with other statements about all areas should provide alternating 'comfortableness' to different character types.

Allows certain character types and classes a fair go at certain areas without having their RP questioned or awkward amongst other classes/characters.

Variety is the spice of life.

Yes... the creatures may be unfair to some specific character builds. But completely fair to others. Same could be argued for other areas/creatures.
--- wrote:Huh? This is one of the best areas for warrior types. My dwarven warrior started wrecking this area at 16. A human fighter should have plenty of room for extra saves feats compared to my dwarf, so the racial bonus isn’t the reason.

Powerful living creatures with lots of hp/fort are actually pretty annoying for the typical divine gish and arcane builds. Areas like the wyvern hills actually show the developers care about making areas for warrior builds. And if you aren’t using steadfast determination and high con on a warrior, what are you doin’? Don’t use mirror image and displacement on a caster either?

The basilisks around Durlag’s tower are great for many warriors as well. SD for the petrifying gaze and deathless frenzy for the will save vs death gaze and you are good. Great for having the area to yourself or to protect your buddies and get some good exp (fast spawns too).
[/quote]
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Re: The Wilds CR 20 - Stone Demons DC 29 Fear Aura

Unread post by Calodan »

Use protection from evil for fear spells. Easy peasy rice and cheesy. Consumables are your friend!

I REPEAT CONSUMABLES ARE YOUR FRIEND!
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Re: The Wilds CR 20 - Stone Demons DC 29 Fear Aura

Unread post by Hendrak »

Aside from working tactics to overcome those monsters, DC 29 for a constant aura is too high for CR 20.
Sun Wukong
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Re: The Wilds CR 20 - Stone Demons DC 29 Fear Aura

Unread post by Sun Wukong »

Hoihe, the underdark is not the surface when it comes to areas. And for some unknown reason the underdark has at least five CR 0 or 1 areas.
Calodan wrote:Use protection from evil for fear spells. Easy peasy rice and cheesy. Consumables are your friend!

I REPEAT CONSUMABLES ARE YOUR FRIEND!
What, spend my gold on things that vanish in a blink of an eye! WHO DO YOU THINK I AM?



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Hoihe
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Re: The Wilds CR 20 - Stone Demons DC 29 Fear Aura

Unread post by Hoihe »

Sun Wukong wrote:Hoihe, the underdark is not the surface when it comes to areas. And for some unknown reason the underdark has at least five CR 0 or 1 areas.
Calodan wrote:Use protection from evil for fear spells. Easy peasy rice and cheesy. Consumables are your friend!

I REPEAT CONSUMABLES ARE YOUR FRIEND!
What, spend my gold on things that vanish in a blink of an eye! WHO DO YOU THINK I AM?



Image

Reason for my quotes was that the exact same arguments arguing for absurd poison DCs also apply for this.

As for Calodan - spending gold when you don't have gold is kind of difficult.
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Sun Wukong
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Re: The Wilds CR 20 - Stone Demons DC 29 Fear Aura

Unread post by Sun Wukong »

Hoihe wrote:Reason for my quotes was that the exact same arguments arguing for absurd poison DCs also apply for this.
Scroll down for poison DC for a CR 6, a 'HD 7' Wyvern: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wyvern.htm

The DC of that poison is determined as follows:
10 (Base)
+ 3 (7 HD/2)
+ 2 (Constitution)
+ 2 (Ability Focus Poison)
= 17

The area is marked as CR15, if I am not mistaken, so I would assume HD 16 Wyverns. Now, if you look at the page for the CR 6 wyvern stats, the wyvern's size has gone from large to huge, and from there to gargantuan. Hence, we are looking at cumulative +8 to constitution.

Thus the updated DC should be as follows:
10 (Base)
+ 8 (16 HD/2)
+ 6 (Constitution)
+ 2 (Ability Focus Poison)
= 26

(I saw DC of 26 on those wyverns)

Now, in PnP, you are usually up against a single wyvern with a 'full' party rather than taking on 2-5 wyverns all by yourself. So in more ways than one, playing on BGTSCC is like playing a DM campaign where the DM wants to wipe out the entire party without a single shed of mercy.



Now, does anyone have the Stone Demon in some source book? Believe or not, seeing them in Underdark was the first for me.
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aaron22
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Re: The Wilds CR 20 - Stone Demons DC 29 Fear Aura

Unread post by aaron22 »

some mobs will be harder for some builds than others. just avoid the ones that are too challenging. instead, take on ones that work better with your build. the wyverns, for instance, are really pretty easy if you use simple tactics. for the most part, i can take almost any build in there and do well as long as i use some tactics.

i would say that is likely the same for the stone demons. if the fear effect is too dangerous, avoid them. other builds will work better against them.

i have builds that really stink in the fields of dead. i just dont go there with them. doesnt mean they need to be weaker. just need to go somewhere else instead.
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Sun Wukong
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Re: The Wilds CR 20 - Stone Demons DC 29 Fear Aura

Unread post by Sun Wukong »

aaron22 wrote:i have builds that really stink in the fields of dead. i just dont go there with them. doesnt mean they need to be weaker. just need to go somewhere else instead.
So where do you go on the Underdark? Hmn... We are not talking about some under CR20 area, we are talking about one of the few 'epic' CR areas in the underdark.

Not to mention that the low will save builds tend to be non-magical by default. In the case of the Wyverns, casters have access to spells like Stone Body that grants Poison Immunity.

Anyhow, does anyone know if Stone Demons are Monster Manual monsters?
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aaron22
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Re: The Wilds CR 20 - Stone Demons DC 29 Fear Aura

Unread post by aaron22 »

more importantly, casters have access to summons of varying types.

im not very familiar with the UD, but maybe more mob options is a good proposal. i think there are several mob options for epics in the UpD though. which IMHO should be UD exclusive, but that is another discussion as well.

maybe it is tactical. like i recall having trouble with the fear effect from the bears in troll claws, until i figured out how to make them not cast it. then i just repeated that strat if i needed to.
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Re: The Wilds CR 20 - Stone Demons DC 29 Fear Aura

Unread post by chad878262 »

Last I checked Wyverns can't cast dispel... Wand/scroll/potion of Deathward will do the trick. The server CR areas are balanced for a party, not solo. So CR20 is balanced around 3-5 level 20 PCs. Going Solo should be a bit of a challenge if you aren't level 24 or higher or have a really strong build. Do you really want the relatively few Underdark area's to be less of a challenge? What's the fun in playing PvE if it isn't difficult?

As to consumables costing gold and being dispelled in general.... *sigh* In what tabletop session did a DM make things easy for you? Consumables are part of tactics. They are not required for all builds, but in some circumstances they serve to cover up for a potential weakness. With the amount of gold you earn on average in a regular dungeon just with vendor 'trash' giving 1300 gold in some cases you can afford a few potions as an adventurer. If it gets dispelled, try a different tactic and/or note that the area is perhaps not a good place to be without a party.

All of this said, DC29 for an aura effect does seem a bit much for CR20 area, so I agree it should be lowered, probably down to ~20-24 IMO as it will still effect most non-caster builds about 50% of the time at level 20. However, is it possible dynamic spawns increased the area/monster CR and thus increased the DCs?
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