Encourage cooperation/spying between UD and surface

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Flatted Fifth
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Encourage cooperation/spying between UD and surface

Unread post by Flatted Fifth »

Remove "You cannot loot on the other side" restrictions


It discourages cooperation between UD characters and their evil surface allies AND makes ZERO rp sense. Why would a pile of gold that one char can loot from just not exist for another character just because one is from the surface and the other from the underdark?

Why should a party be able to pick up treasure in the Nashkell mines EXCEPT for that UD tiefling spy in their midst?

It hurts rp and it detracts from immersion. Please get rid of it.
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Shadowspinner70
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Re: Encourage cooperation/spying between UD and surface

Unread post by Shadowspinner70 »

There were issues in the past regarding drow players in particular, which is unfortunate.

What I do know now is the loot restrictions themselves are redundant. UD races cannot, by rule, go topside for a non-RP reason. If they go topside without a RP reason, such as grinding, said person is at risk to get smacked back bottomside or even find disciplinary measures taken against them.

So, since it's already illegal, it is redundant. I also get that this particular measure helps keep DMs available by... not having to keep an eye on these things as much. UD players can't grind topside by rule and this makes it impossible.

Redundant? Yes. It probably makes things for UD spawned tieflings spying on the surface harder. I personally doubt staff will budge on this. Many players don't even like the UD existing. I'll still advocate for this while other members of the mod team keep an eye on this thread, given it's controversial. So, I won't be moderating this thread.

After that disclaimer, back to the topic. As a player, you have my backing. It makes 0 sense for a tiefling spy to not get their loot while following a group of knights along on a training run to take notes on, for example, their fighting styles. I know several people who take note of fighting style in files on other characters.
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Re: Encourage cooperation/spying between UD and surface

Unread post by Deathgrowl »

Shadowspinner70 wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 5:31 pm After that disclaimer, back to the topic. As a player, you have my backing. It makes 0 sense for a tiefling spy to not get their loot while following a group of knights along on a training run to take notes on, for example, their fighting styles. I know several people who take note of fighting style in files on other characters.
I actually agree with you. For races that can spawn both places (orc, tiefling, genasi), it makes no sense to restrict it by rule. But as long as the rule is in place, it does make sense to restrict it by mechanics.

So yeah, I would personally be in favour of changing the rule in the case of orc, tiefling and genasi (the last of which, by the way, I never understood why even were able to spawn in the underdark).

But I will remain firmly against giving the underdark-restricted races access to the surface without special DM dispensation.

Now when it comes to the wording of the topic, on the other hand, I actually would discourage cooperation, but rather encourage conflict between the UD and surface. In regards to cooperation in the case of mechanical gameplay, the Upperdark is of course available to both sides, so you have that.

On the topic of spying, however, there is nothing preventing it from happening currently. You don't have to be able to loot "on the other side" in order to spy.
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Re: Encourage cooperation/spying between UD and surface

Unread post by Snarfy »

Flatted Fifth wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 4:57 pm Why should a party be able to pick up treasure in the Nashkell mines EXCEPT for that UD tiefling, imaskari, drow, or svirf spy in their midst?

It hurts rp and it detracts from immersion. Please get rid of it
You missed a few races that might not be the one you're playing. And not being able to loot on the surface because you chose the UD as a starting point hurts your RP? Really?
Deathgrowl wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 5:54 pm So yeah, I would personally be in favour of changing the rule in the case of orc, tiefling and genasi.
This would just give those races the ability to loot server-wide carte blanche. I can't think of a single reason why those races should be able to loot everywhere, while every other race is restricted to only being able to loot in whichever side they chose to spawn in.

And lets be honest here, it's not like this is a new restriction. If you start in the UD, you loot in the UD. If you start on the surface, you loot on the surface.
Shadowspinner70 wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 5:31 pm What I do know now is the loot restrictions themselves are redundant. UD races cannot, by rule, go topside for a non-RP reason. If they go topside without a RP reason, such as grinding, said person is at risk to get smacked back bottomside or even find disciplinary measures taken against them.

So, since it's already illegal, it is redundant.
If you give either side a reason to visit the other side that isn't related to RP(such as loot), then they are going to abuse it. Consequences be damned. Heck, some players are already grinding on the side they shouldn't be. Playing by the rules isn't exactly at the forefront of the current culture(or so I've noticed), and if you give them an inch... well, you know the rest.
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Re: Encourage cooperation/spying between UD and surface

Unread post by Shadowspinner70 »

Snarfy wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 6:29 pm, while every other race is restricted to only being able to loot in whichever side they chose to spawn in.
This is the part that has me agreeing with you. If this ever ends up happening, it must be extended to everyone or just can't happen. I've seen a half drow almost infiltrate a knightly organization with the use of a full armor set, and only fail because an orc was with her. It's also really awkward, I imagine, to follow your target through an area and coming up with an excuse for not getting anything or pretending to get and sell loot.

If the mechanical aspect is lifted, however, unfortunately the actual rule behind that mechanic must be enforced. If a person is being taken along grinding by their target and a DM asks why you're blatantly grinding, you damn well better have examples of prior RP spying on that person and an idea of what you plan to do afterwards. Unfortunately the server is at a place where future plans alone can't be trusted and prior examples need to be given.

I want to see an inch given. Measures do have to be taken so the inch doesn't become a mile. Rules need to be enforced. The mechanic's removal isn't removing the rule or removing the enforcement. It means that the enforcement will shift from an indiscriminate script to the hands of people. Things can fall through the cracks. Things can also develop beautifully when people are involved.
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Re: Encourage cooperation/spying between UD and surface

Unread post by athornforyourheart »

Snarfy wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 6:29 pm
If you give either side a reason to visit the other side that isn't related to RP(such as loot), then they are going to abuse it. Consequences be damned. Heck, some players are already grinding on the side they shouldn't be. Playing by the rules isn't exactly at the forefront of the current culture(or so I've noticed), and if you give them an inch... well, you know the rest.
Agreed. People already abuse and stretch the current rule with zany excuses and “between the lines and fine print” reasons to Rp/loot/grind on the surface as it is. The rule should stay as it is.

I suppose this conversation like many others are due for their annual revisiting.
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Re: Encourage cooperation/spying between UD and surface

Unread post by Flatted Fifth »

So, make it so that ONLY drow and dueregar characters cannot loot on the surface, BUT reduce their ECL by 1 as consolation.
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Re: Encourage cooperation/spying between UD and surface

Unread post by Steve »

I think the real point here is the Underdark, and the Upperdark, needs much, much more love by staff, DMs...even the Players! It gets like 1/100th the attention as does the Surface gets, and what I can see is the real issue is the damn loneliness and lack of a RP/Community experience, if spawning a PC down below.

Making the “borders” between the UD and the Surface more porous and more “lucrative,” only serves to weaken the Lore of the Forgotten Realms, in the Servers Sword Coast region.

What REALLY needs to happen is the Upperdark needs massive expansion, and become “loot able” for all PCs no matter which side of the light they originally spawn.

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Re: Encourage cooperation/spying between UD and surface

Unread post by Tekill »

The server wants to keep a distance between surfacers and UD'ers. They are two different worlds and not a 3-4 maps- hop skip and jump, away. It is a long difficult journey to get to each side. And so, it is not realistic for your Teif/orc/genesai to be able to be on one side one minute and then on the other side the next. Even teleporters should RP finding telporting points and even then find it taxing to teleport from one side to the other.

Even so , if u want to cooperate or infiltrate the other side then do it. What does that have to do with being able to grind on the other side at the same time as your RP?

The real problem is that there is no fostered growth or building of an UD community and not with issues trying to find ways to insert your characters on the surface, or vice versa.
Last edited by Tekill on Tue Jun 01, 2021 2:01 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Encourage cooperation/spying between UD and surface

Unread post by JustAnotherGuy »

I don't have much of a dog in this fight. But I will say, I have tried to work with players that play in the underdark to make some story. There are many, many factors here, and any single one could have made this result. But the story fell through. I really wish it hadn't. It had the potential to be pretty epic, and involve several factions, both topside and below.

I do want more conflict between the surfacers and underdark. IMO, that is cooperation. Conflict RP is cooperative story telling when it is done right. Whether that needs a rule change, an attitude change, or what have you, I want to see more of it.
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Re: Encourage cooperation/spying between UD and surface

Unread post by Deathgrowl »

Snarfy wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 6:29 pm This would just give those races the ability to loot server-wide carte blanche. I can't think of a single reason why those races should be able to loot everywhere, while every other race is restricted to only being able to loot in whichever side they chose to spawn in.
Well, yes. Because from an in-character perspective, these races aren't out-of-place on the "other side". It means they could, if they so choose, change whether they consider the surface their home or the underdark their home - again, from an in-character perspective. In their case, the prevention to loot on the other side strikes me only as an arbitrary OOC loot balancing. I understand that argument, but I find it unconvincing when the argument about preventing drow and duergar to loot on the surface in the first place always had an in-character grounding. There were too many drow on the surface with no RP reason, and so a deterrent was put in.

Now, you could make an argument that there are too many tieflings on the surface too (or just too many tieflings, full stop!), and I'd be happy to agree. That ship has sailed, though, I think.
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Re: Encourage cooperation/spying between UD and surface

Unread post by Almarea90 »

Deathgrowl wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 5:54 pm
Now when it comes to the wording of the topic, on the other hand, I actually would discourage cooperation, but rather encourage conflict between the UD and surface. In regards to cooperation in the case of mechanical gameplay, the Upperdark is of course available to both sides, so you have that.
Not all UD characters have interest in damaging the surface and not all the surface have interest in stopping them from doing so. Also not all surfacers would kill on sight a UDer unprovoked or the other way around and if the two of them are cooperating I would assume they are doing it for legitimate RP reasons. In this instance I would encourage whatever makes sense for an individual's RP on a case by case basis may it be cooperation or conflict. If an ilmateri pacifists heals and starts a dialogue with a drow I can't see why they should be encouraged to show a conflicting attitude towards them. I personally find more immersion breaking a character not being able to loot for some unknown reason than UDers and surfacers not at eachother throats. However if you mean "discouraging" from an IC point of view rather than mechanical I absolutely agree with you as it makes perfect sense someone seen being friendly with drow isn't looked favourably at by other surfacers.
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Re: Encourage cooperation/spying between UD and surface

Unread post by EasternCheesE »

I see "no loot" as a restriction that disallows people to lootrun the whole server more than RP stop. I myself saw enough UD PCs on surface and vice versa to say loot is not a turning point in "Hmmm, shall i go to UD/surface and rp with someone?".

I myself would love to see "0 xp" removed, and, maybe, make gold piles available to UDers etc (So, can get some gold, but not loot).
To me, this will make surface/ud crossing in terms for teamplay and roleplay way more viable, even if this is just a grind in some area. I want it especially since nowadays UD offers 1-2 ppl running around with very different level and thus, very little opportunities to RP while staying there.
Just remember, not everyone are an old player who can quickly organize themself an RP hook to go to surface to trade stuff, make deals etc. Some newer player's rp can start from "I was curious what's up/down there" and it feels quite like a way to go out and meet people for having better RP justifications to go up/down.
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Re: Encourage cooperation/spying between UD and surface

Unread post by Tekill »

EasternCheesE wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 5:45 am "Hmmm, shall i go to UD/surface and rp with someone?".
Thats kinky. ..

It used to be much more difficult to travel to the UD. The UD was cut off from the surface aside from a couple savvy players that could find their way. The current situation is a lot looser than it was. And I bet there is a lot of players that would prefer the UD continue to be completely cut off.

I would like to see more UD/Surface RP as well and I do not agree with restricting where we can grind.

But, I think there are a lot of players and admin that want to keep the sides separate. The no loot/exp thing is a big deterrent that keeps people on their side of the fence. It is not 100% effective as for example my characters constantly finds reasons to break on through to the other side. But it achieves its purpose of regularly keeping players from wandering out of bounds for no reason or for loot runs.

I think it is a reminder that the the goal is to keep encounters from either side random and fairly rare (the exception maybe being Soubar).

To make RP successful for Surface/UD factions there needs to be a way to foster factions in the underdark to survive and thrive. From there these factions can build connections and create plotlines involving new and experienced players from both sides. It will involve only players that want that sort of RP.

Its kind of a compromise. The UD needs the RP opportunities with the surface to make up for its lack of population. But at the same time the surfacers don't want the surface lousy with UD'ers.

Im still confused by the implication that you cant cooperate/spy on the other side because you cant grind or get loot from that side...Grinding/looting tends to be void of all but the most superficial RP tending to have no RP value at all.
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Re: Encourage cooperation/spying between UD and surface

Unread post by Kitunenotsume »

While I do not have a stake in the game, having RPed at most in the Upperdark and Rockrun, the general descriptions I am reading of this situation is a catch-22:

1) There is no significant RP to connect the two because there is no significant incentive.
2) There is no significant incentive to connect the two because there is no significant RP.

It sounds like the initial post is attempting to address this by breaking the loop, but clearly there are concerns about breaking either stage of the loop without ensuring that it is not exploited and that the other linkage is similarly broken. Personally, I am left somewhat curious as to the inclusion of the underdark in the server at all given the rather stringent separation between the two and how adamant the community generally appears to be about preventing cross-realm contamination.

It is my observation that incentive need not necessarily be in the form of looting, but it would certainly benefit from being some tangible resource that the Underdark could offer that would drive coordination. As it stands however, while player-to-player trade is barred outside deliberately trekking the distance, one can circumvent trade restrictions simply by using the Consignment store, so common surface and UD resources (like Heroism pots or piwafwi, respectively) can already be transacted across realm boundaries without any intentional violation.

While the faction angle is definitely true, the sheer comparative lack of players or RP opportunities really doesn't lend itself to a proliferation of UD factions the way the surface seems to. As a general rule, Role-players gravitate to where players are, while mechanics gamers gravitate to optimal returns. If there are neither significant players nor significant returns the number of players will never be enough to reach that critical mass. Not without breaking one of the two impeding linkages listed above.
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