Northlander Hewing - Unexpected Results

[Quidix]

Disclaimer: Quite new to the server, and might not understand many mechanics, so below might be wrong

Having returned to the server recently I couldn't help but notice how much praise Northlander Hewing was getting everywhere, and so when going away to make my barbarian I was rather excited to try it. Now, I wanted to ensure I hadn't made any mistakes, and so I tried building it in the testing module, and figured I might as well run a quick test.

The results were as follows in terms of total damage during 10 rounds of combat with EW, EPA, frenzy and standard rage on:

30 AC Dummy
With NH: 2856
Without NH: 3453

50 AC Dummy
With NH: 936
Without NH: 2127

As you can see, the character was better off not using NH in both cases of AC. Is this really true / what am I missing? As it stands I'm pondering just sticking with EPA.

For reference, the build used was a 20 Barbarian, 5 Battlerager and 5 Frenzied Berserker

[aaron22]

i found similar results on a strength based R/FB/WoD build. have abandoned it since along with most of the combat feats like that.

[Rudolph]

My penny's worth on NH (as someone who's using it on several builds): NH increases strength damage, physical extra damage, and base weapon damage at the cost of AB (and AC) and number of attacks, usually losing low AB attacks. This means it is good on STR-focused builds fighting against high DR builds with a high enough AC that they are not usually hit by the later attacks in a round anyway. Otherwise, it's no improvement and often the opposite. In my book that makes it mostly a situational feat, unless one's damage output is otherwise seriously below par. NH damage doesn't crit, furthermore, which means it's usually wasted on Weapon Masters or high crit range weapon wielders.

[Quidix]

I suppose my surprise was also that NH seemed to do much worse in the high AC case? Isn't that when it's supposed to be good?

[Rudolph]

I suppose my surprise was also that NH seemed to do much worse in the high AC case? Isn't that when it's supposed to be good?

It's complicated. If your AB is high enough to still hit with the first two thirds of your attacks after the -2 AB penalty but not so high that your lost last third would have had a decent chance of hitting as well AND if your NH damage increase is high enough to make up for the loss of the occasional lucky 20 roll on the lost attacks THEN it should be better...

[aaron22]

from my perspective, and this is theory only as i have yet to try it on a lot of build styles, a high str, that utilizes the NH feat best, gives such a bonus to the BAB that later attacks have a greater likelihood of landing no matter what the BAB progression is. so a low BAB progression build may only have 3 attacks but those attacks will have a nice bonus from the high str to land often even on the third attack. and a high BAB build with 6 attacks will land often enough with the 5th and 6th attack that it will take the NH damage boost and turn it to a negative. now there might be a boost damage to initial flurry, but over a multi-round encounter NH will lack.

[mrm3ntalist]

All findings and opinions here are valid. Contrary to what ohters posted in different threads, NH is not a must have, it is a situational one. Like choosing whether to focus on a bludgeoning or slashing damage weapon. Each have the for and against.

NH is most efficient when dealing with mobs with high DR. Its a feat that a fighter for example can have and turn on and off depending the situation. Personally I picked it on my STR ranger but i only use against non FEs especially those with DR.

[aaron22]

MrM, is that a two weapon ranger?

[mrm3ntalist]

yes. But i would take it on a twohander as well.

[Sun Wukong]

What were you actually testing? Were you using Northlander Hewing and Improved Power Attack together? Because that comes with a total of -8 AB, reduced number of attacks, and as far as I know Northlander Hewing doesn't work with critical hits at all. Hence you should generally expect a lower damage output, since you have less AB, and Attacks.

I would try Northlander Hewing without IPA active. Instead of -8 AB, I would be only looking at -2 AB.

Moreover, did you try setting the dummy immune to critical hits? (If that is possible.)

I would test it myself, but the testing gui just doesn't pop up. :/

[aaron22]

why havent any of you smart guys made a secondary parser for this game. or if you have could you send me the link so i can load it. JEGS blows and i hate it more than commercials with flo.

[Kalgain]

The thing that makes NH balanced is the loss of the critical hits.

Thus you should not use it with other damage enhancing feats, but as a replacement.

If you even use enhanced power attack with two handed weapons, then it should be a simple deduction to clarify why you lose damage while activating NH.

NH is in my opinion OP if you use it against crit immune targets with 1h+shield on a high str build. That is what i would test at a dummy.

[aaron22]

just out of curiosity. what damage/hit are getting with that build. cus i can take a F/FB/WM and get ~90/hit on crit immunes while pumping out 250 on mobs that are not. DR? pretty irrelevant. and even crit immune is an annoyance, but just that.

[Quidix]

Okay so a bit more data to refine the conclusions (beyond the fact that yes, often a situational choice):

Rage + Frenzy + EW: 2007 (AC30) - 1631 (AC50)
Rage + Frenzy + EW + NH: 2420 (AC30) - 1871 (AC50)
-> NH provides c.15-20% damage boost if you don't use EPA, so if you don't want to blow 2 feats and / or are not a FB, it is indeed worth taking it (and leaving it on pretty much at all times)

Rage + Frenzy + EPA + EW: 3453 (AC30) - 2127 (AC50)
Rage + Frenzy + EPA + EW + NH: 2856 (AC30) - 936 (AC50)
-> EPA does quite a lot more damage than NH, even on high armor targets
-> If you're already using EPA, then also using NH actually decreases your damage (although I'm sure situations where that is not the case exists)

The build I'm testing is hitting for c.60-65 with rage, frenzy and EPA - I should note this is with a plain +3 weapon and no other gear. What is the build that hits for 90? Suspect in part driven by gear, but sounds surprisingly high if non-crit.

[aaron22]

gear, str30, fighter feats and two handing great weapon. that is our diff. i bet