Loot Rebalance

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Zanniej
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Re: Loot Rebalance

Unread post by Zanniej »

I don't think we want the entire server to be solo-able.
This is a party game. If you wish to solo, you'll have to accept that you can't go everywhere.

I think it is perfectly acceptable to have risks involved to soloing. If you can solo everything with the right build, then what is there left to conquer? What achievements can you achieve? Where's the fun in conquering an area as a group, if you have seen everything on your own already?

For me, making the server solo-able is absolutely not a goal. While I realise that some timezones make finding a group harder (I'm not in the most active timezone myself), I still would prefer to keep an air of mystery over some content, and some danger involved to adventuring (which in itself is a dangerous profession), than being able to handle the entire server if you plan correctly. It's not an adventure if you know exactly what to expect!
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Thaelis
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Re: Loot Rebalance

Unread post by Thaelis »

Zanniej wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 1:31 pm I don't think we want the entire server to be solo-able.
This is a party game. If you wish to solo, you'll have to accept that you can't go everywhere.

I think it is perfectly acceptable to have risks involved to soloing. If you can solo everything with the right build, then what is there left to conquer? What achievements can you achieve? Where's the fun in conquering an area as a group, if you have seen everything on your own already?

For me, making the server solo-able is absolutely not a goal. While I realise that some timezones make finding a group harder (I'm not in the most active timezone myself), I still would prefer to keep an air of mystery over some content, and some danger involved to adventuring (which in itself is a dangerous profession), than being able to handle the entire server if you plan correctly. It's not an adventure if you know exactly what to expect!
Totally agree.

Also I'm in AU timezone which is usually DEAD, but even I can find a group if I send enough annoying Tells and stand around at the FAI looking suitably forlorn "Please sir... *sniffle sniffle* I'm just a helpless Elf ranger... please take me with you"
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Hoihe
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Re: Loot Rebalance

Unread post by Hoihe »

"I have an hour until a pre-arranged RP meeting. I'll go do some looting on the way to pass the time, and record a video to show friend what BG is like."


Cue:
Image

Then follow a Mohrg who proceeds to spam Balagharn's Iron Horn like it's infinite for at least an entire minute.
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EasternCheesE
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Re: Loot Rebalance

Unread post by EasternCheesE »

Okay, i will just put it here so you have your better time avoiding mimics.
If you bash a chest for 8 rounds and you still didn't break the lock - it's a mimic for 99% chance unless you damage lock for 3-5 dmg a round.

I myself found it out by bashing chest for 20 rounds in a row with 10-15 dmg a hit.
yyj

Re: Loot Rebalance

Unread post by yyj »

I have no idea what's going on in the loot on the Underdark but to give you an example:

Underdark: River Rift kobolds, give me around 30-40 exp, but the chests are giving decent loot.

Goblin Lake, I get around 40-45 exp and the loot in there is just 20-30 gold...

Character level is 10, but I noticed goblin lake stopped giving loot since level 8 (while the area was still giving like 48-51 exp)

It feels really bad, compared to the surface looting experience.
EasternCheesE
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Re: Loot Rebalance

Unread post by EasternCheesE »

If you mean those 4 chests in goblin lake (not lower into it), i agree, those kept giving me ~40 gold for a pretty long time too while i still was in their CR margin to get 40-50 xp.
yyj

Re: Loot Rebalance

Unread post by yyj »

EasternCheesE wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 12:38 pm If you mean those 4 chests in goblin lake (not lower into it), i agree, those kept giving me ~40 gold for a pretty long time too while i still was in their CR margin to get 40-50 xp.
Yes, I think only at level 5 they gave me loot, after that just 20-30~ gold.
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gedweyignasia
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Re: Loot Rebalance

Unread post by gedweyignasia »

yyj wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 11:18 am Character level is 10, but I noticed goblin lake stopped giving loot since level 8 (while the area was still giving like 48-51 exp)
This is an issue we are aware of and intend to address. In my mind, it is the biggest flaw with the current loot system. I'm sorry that your experience is suffering in the meantime.
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Reckeo
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Re: Loot Rebalance

Unread post by Reckeo »

Late to the party here, only recently returned to the game and found myself not getting any loot at all.

Then it hit me like a lightning bolt "Oh, they must have changed it again".

So, long story short, I'm not going to go on and on about why I think I have a solution, or even dip into a series of questions as to 'why the changes'.

I thoroughly enjoyed the addition of instanced chests, still recalling the days of legally questionable PVP over chests. Glad those days are gone!

The problem I now have, is that the restrictions have prevented my characters from getting loot at all. Yeah, I was notorious for late night solo loot runs when player numbers were low, or if I just felt like knocking a few monster heads together and having a relaxing run at it all, going back to town to sell off the junk, and calling it a night feeling I kept the little fantasy realm a wee bit safer from that evil beholder just outside Candlekeep (or insert any random dungeon monster).

This seems a bit 'forced', I had read that 'this is supposed to be party based' etc etc.

Ok! That's cool. Take my hat when I leave then? And I won't btw, I've been an intermittent gamer for some time, leaving the server, coming back on and on like an abusive relationship I just can't stay away from because we love each other at the end of the day. Please don't take ANYTHING I say as sarcasm/insult, I think you all do a great job. So why am I saying this?

Because the inner rebel hears all this, and now understands that if I wish to continue my preferred playstyle of dungeon smashing/casual looting, I just have to roll toons specifically designed for those areas (for example, a ranger/rogue built with a hatred of all things kobold to run kobold loot runs), figure out the level cap for the chests in the area, and utilize the experience off option to stay within range so I can continue doing what I enjoyed the most from this server.

Meta as it can get. Some of my best experiences were when I was soloing a dungeon for the 'phat lewtz' only to stumble into other adventurers and partying on. Never forget the time we left the dead body of the selfish treasure hunter by the river outside of the Minotaur Maze. Classic. Fun. And we kept his share.

Fun being the key word. This restriction takes some of that away and creates a narrow alleyway through which playstyle is now not being 'encouraged', but rather enforced.

He who controls the loot, controls the universe!

***EDIT FOR CLARIFICATION***

Example: My level 6 Aasimar Paladin is in Kobolds, receiving 35 XP per Kobold, 44 per Bladeling, and only receives gold from chests. Oddly enough, from an RP stand point, due to the nature of Paladin (old school AD&D here), I am ok with this. However, it could be a problem if my character did depend on the loot for upgrading gear or getting better equipment. He can 'solo', but he is at risk of falling if I am careless. This does require delicate balancing of playstyle, which is rewarding in it's own regard. I'm not sure if the level cut off for chests in Kobolds is 6, or 7. If it is 6, but due to Aasimar being considered +1, this would be putting a loot limitation on races that have this mechanic in place. Not sure if it's fair or not, or if it's even accurate, just seeking clarification as it dawned on me after my initial post.


I didn't want my above post to imply I am simply 'meta'. If I did ever roll a low level character for being a 'dungeon delver', I would RP them as such, and probably not be very well liked by other RP'ers for being a selfish grubby grubberson. Not all of my characters are this way.
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Snarfy
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Re: Loot Rebalance

Unread post by Snarfy »

Reckeo wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 12:32 pm Late to the party here, only recently returned to the game and found myself not getting any loot at all.

Then it hit me like a lightning bolt "Oh, they must have changed it again".

So, long story short, I'm not going to go on and on about why I think I have a solution, or even dip into a series of questions as to 'why the changes'.

I thoroughly enjoyed the addition of instanced chests, still recalling the days of legally questionable PVP over chests. Glad those days are gone!

The problem I now have, is that the restrictions have prevented my characters from getting loot at all. Yeah, I was notorious for late night solo loot runs when player numbers were low, or if I just felt like knocking a few monster heads together and having a relaxing run at it all, going back to town to sell off the junk, and calling it a night feeling I kept the little fantasy realm a wee bit safer from that evil beholder just outside Candlekeep (or insert any random dungeon monster).

This seems a bit 'forced', I had read that 'this is supposed to be party based' etc etc.
I too enjoyed having the ability to just kick back, head to whichever dungeon tickled my fancy, and not have to worry about finding a party or consulting a CR chart beforehand. I've beaten the horse to death on how OOC the whole thing feels now, and while I've run/tested my "CR appropriate" zones countless times, and found some spiffy loot, the rewards aren't enticing enough for me to keep going back to those 7 or 8 areas. I've nearly come to a full stop on exploring/looting, only occasionally running through a few zones with unlocked containers(which were unaffected by the changes) when the urge happens to strike. And when those rare opportunities to party up and go raid those other 7 or 8 CR appropriate not-soloable dungeons arise, I usually take a pass.
Meta as it can get. Some of my best experiences were when I was soloing a dungeon for the 'phat lewtz' only to stumble into other adventurers and partying on. Never forget the time we left the dead body of the selfish treasure hunter by the river outside of the Minotaur Maze. Classic. Fun. And we kept his share.

Fun being the key word. This restriction takes some of that away and creates a narrow alleyway through which playstyle is now not being 'encouraged', but rather enforced.
+1. Fun is absolutely the key word here. Mind you, I wouldn't go so far as to say playstyle is being enforced, rather than aspects of it have been de-incentivized. Whether or not people want to solo, or party up(permitting they can even find such) and have the full BG experience, everyone should have the freedom to do that. While there are some benefits to the loot changes, I think having less areas to visit overall(while experiencing some sense of IC-treasure-finding-normalcy) is definitely less fun than being able to simply turn off the meta/ooc aspects of our brains and just "go adventure".
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matelener
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Re: Loot Rebalance

Unread post by matelener »

Couple of ideas for loot enhancement:

- Add all epic blueprints to the loot system
- Greatly improve chances of higher tier items - some items simply never drop even for people playing for years.
- Introduce new resource: "luck". It's capped at some number, replenishes with time (and/or RP xp) and enhances loot rolls even more. Opening chests lowers character's "luck". A character with no "luck" can of course still loot but without the bonus.

And nerf mimics or at least soften their CR scaling for lower levels.
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Re: Loot Rebalance

Unread post by ARHicks00 »

Hoihe wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 7:08 am Been talking with a friend.

They have a level 13 character with 21 AB and 31 AC.

Quite high stats, yeah?

Went to do gnoll caves and ran into a mimic.

After using Rage for more AB, she could only hit the mimic on 16 and above. And the mimic consistently hit her for 20-25

Had to drink 2 potions of Heal.

Ran into another in batiri mines and 2 more potions of heal down the drain.


Meanwhile me at level 30, with 40 tumble mod, with acrobatic skill mastery, with 60 AC (with touch ac in 40s and uncanny dodge) and 30 reflex, 24 dex, evasion...

run into a mimic at serpent hills.

You'd think with my stats, mimics couldnt entangle me since you know, very high stats specifically about avoiding being touched and slipping away in case of touch and even being surprised doesnt take those away.



One cannot help but wonder that the devs want one to not even bother with looting and consequently logging in at all when there arent people guaranteed to provide rp.

Also see this...


https://www.bgtscc.net/viewtopic.php?f=443&t=74857
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MrSmith
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Re: Loot Rebalance

Unread post by MrSmith »

matelener wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 1:37 pm Couple of ideas for loot enhancement:

- Introduce a new resource: "luck". It's capped at some number, replenishes with time (and/or RP xp), and enhances loot rolls even more. Opening chests lowers the character's "luck". A character with no "luck" can of course still loot but without the bonus.
This is a good idea... But I opine "Loot Rebalance" is a noble effort to address one symptom of the problem: Baldur's Gate economy.

The Baldur's Gate economy has four components: Labor, Goods, Services, and Rewards.

Labor: The arduous physical or mental exertion to secure capital gains in the form of Gold, Goods, or Rewards.

• Labor in the wild:
  • Adventuring ("loot runs")
    Manufacturing (Wands and Potions)
    RP
Key Point: Players control their labor. More labor equals more capital gains.

Loot Rebalance efforts are focused on Labor, and more specifically on Adventuring. So, no matter how balanced the loot table is in the long run, the root problem will remain because goods are price fixed at the point of sale by NPC vendors.

Goods: The production of all primary goods is BGTSCC-server controlled, including the identification of any requisite skills, feats, and equipment players' must possess to create consumables as a service. Goods consist of three basic groups - Equipment, Consumables, and Novelty.
Equipment
• Most equipment is acquired via services with gold, or via rewards with RP, or via loot with adventuring
• Rare equipment is acquired via loot or via services (as a trade) and rarely sold for gold.

Consumables
• Consumables enhance the user and are broken into Five categories
o
  • Spells
    o Wands
    o Potions
    o Scrolls
    o Item-based (Healing Kits, Item w/ Spell Use per Day, Dusty Tomes, Specific Gems)
Novelty
• Novelties are broken into Four categories
o
  • Books
    o Outfits
    o Crafting components
    o Items commonly referred to as “junk”
Key Points:
• Goods are available and generally accessible, rare equipment being the exception.
• Once available, Players control whether to acquire goods.

Services:
• Skills-based profiteering (wand and potion making, high appraisal proxy-buyers).
• Player Merchants
• NPC Storefronts
• Mudd’s Auction

Rewards:
• DM actions resulting in capital gains.


The single, most effective way to address the Baldur's Gate economy as a whole is to remove the restrictive practice of price controls and allow NPC merchants to use a character's skills (appraisal, bluff, diplomacy, etc.) to ascertain the player's best price. Yes, players would have more funds on hand, which could lead to the devaluation of gold and price inflation. However, these phenomena already exist. 1) Most Player Merchants only accept trades and not gold for rare and wondrous items found via loot runs. This fact will not change nor will it make any future economy any worse. 2) Currently, the relative cost of consumables, i.e. 10 Heal Pots, routinely exceeds the cost of durable goods, i.e. EB 4 Weapon on the auction house.

While I have not updated this list for some time, I have all of this equipment and then some... I would ask you to review my stores by item for no other reason than to estimate the total assessed value.

https://www.bgtscc.net/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=74033

Then, consider the fact that if I sold everything on this list and more (all of the items I did not yet list) for 1,400 gold pieces each... I would have just enough gold to purchase the +4 Wisdom Helmet in Candlekeep (~700 bags). 500 items x 1,400 = 700 bags.

Thank you for the consideration.

Cheers!
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Reckeo
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Re: Loot Rebalance

Unread post by Reckeo »

The more I contemplate the implications of 'loot rebalance' the more and more it just appears to be a mechanical implementation of 'accessability adjustment'.

The server will now favor financial and better loot distribution towards players who have a core base of players/friends around their same CR level (and also the same time frame for playing) as opposed to those who do not. This means that guilds, groups of RL friends, and other 'groups' will be favored over those who are independent or solo oriented, and this will be expressed through the 'rebalanced' loot system.

Seems to me like a control maneuver designed to favor the ones who pushed to see this implemented. Like politicians voting on giving themselves raises. Hear hear!
Tanlaus
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Re: Loot Rebalance

Unread post by Tanlaus »

Reckeo wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 2:13 am The more I contemplate the implications of 'loot rebalance' the more and more it just appears to be a mechanical implementation of 'accessability adjustment'.

The server will now favor financial and better loot distribution towards players who have a core base of players/friends around their same CR level (and also the same time frame for playing) as opposed to those who do not. This means that guilds, groups of RL friends, and other 'groups' will be favored over those who are independent or solo oriented, and this will be expressed through the 'rebalanced' loot system.

Seems to me like a control maneuver designed to favor the ones who implemented it. Like politicians voting on giving themselves raises. Hear hear!
I disagree with your premise.

Primarily the loot rebalance was implemented to keep high level players from blowing through no risk low level dungeons to pick up an easy 15 - 20k.

Not a problem? Well it was an RP problem to lower lever characters working their way through a challenging area just to have a solo epic character blow through destroying everything in their path for the easy loot.

So honestly where you are incorrect is in assuming the change is all mechanics without RP consideration. It was motivated by RP consideration, or inconsideration of the player base.

That being said there is an issue around level 10ish where loot drops off in areas that are still challenging. It’s a known issue and will be fixed.

There’s also consideration for raising the floor of gold in epic chests, so you won’t randomly get 37 gold from like the frost Giant King or anything in the Greypeaks.

Also, when the change was implemented, the chance of finding epic items especially in higher tier chests was raised considerably. And many epic areas- it was discovered- had lower tiered chests than they should have so that was adjusted to.

So there has been plenty of benefit to go with the pain of no more risk free loot runs.
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