Coming Soon: Dragon shape changes

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Re: Coming Soon: Dragon shape changes

Unread post by Deathgrowl »

Obviously starting with +2 wisdom makes it easier. The claim was that reaching 27 wisdom was actually hard without it, though. Which is what I responded to.
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Re: Coming Soon: Dragon shape changes

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athornforyourheart wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 4:21 am I don't speak much on mechanics posts very much, but seeing this makes me worry with how many new Dragons are going to show up with extremely limited knowledge of druidic lore/roleplay. I suppose one can just be hopeful. :)
Not that this is anything new with druid RP. :P
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Re: Coming Soon: Dragon shape changes

Unread post by predrag »

If there would be added an epic plant shape at some point , Ancient Treant , Elder Myconid , Primordial Shambler , something like that , I'd go for it in a heartbeat with Sane . :D
Don't like being forced to change gloves though , still the extra damage instead of ac and dex is actually a preferred change to me .
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Re: Coming Soon: Dragon shape changes

Unread post by CooCooCachoo »

I like the changes. Now maybe Hierophant can actually feel like a prestige class instead of a willfully imposed nerf.

I'd still like to see Hierophant customized a bit more for druids. Of course, if you say that out loud people get ignorant and nasty. I swear if I hear, "But blood to water!" one more time. . . Druids don't cast blood to water. Druids don't cast blood to water. DRUIDS DON'T CAST BLOOD TO WATER!!! It's gearing toward cleric makes it less appealing and the built up anti-druid sentiment from a bunch of people who have never PLAYED druid makes it near impossible to broach the subject but here I go again lining up for abuse.

The use of gloves for customizing and a bit of AB is welcome. The druids can tank anything on the server... But it takes all day for them to kill the stupid thing because everything is geared for a powerbuilt fighter with 50AB minimum. This made level grinding an absolute slog. Now we are losing tank ability... Looks like 6ac for a potential +4 max ab and some flavor and SURPRISE, there are people complaining we're going to continue to be too strong. Really starting to believe forums on druid abilities ought to be limited to people who actually actively play druid. Take your fighter that can kill the ice Jarl in 4 hits and make some popcorn. I'll set up a dragon druid to fight the ice jarl, you just park and watch, and we can talk OOC for the next thirty minutes during the MISS MISS MISS MISS MISS MISS MISS HIT! OMG YES 30DMG! MISS MISS MISS MISS MISS.

You can say, "Well party up!" Okay, didn't you just negate your argument that druids are overpowered then? There are plenty of builds that can solo the server without batting an eye, but my "overpowered druid" has to party up to not take an hour to fight the boss? Also... Again, clearly you don't RP druid, because Druids really should be more solitary. But sure, let's ignore lore like we always do and I'll tank right through the ice peaks with a warlock, a fighter, and mage. All of whom I should have stern words for as a druid. People talk about how crappy druid RP is but the druids aren't built to allow for the real thing. It's also interesting to hear someone talk about backstories and lore who just had to decide where they were from and who they lost who was important to them to give "yet another powerbuilt fighter/paladin/bard" some edge. Glass houses folks.

I play a lot of classes, shammy and druids are just my favorites. I have played warlocks, clerics, fighters, rogue/assassins, pure rangers, bards, and a slew of prestige classes. Druid is not overpowered. There are plenty of builds that can make a legendary tiger shaped druid look like a tiny mewling kitten. Go ahead at eviscerate me for saying it per the usual. I'd hate for you to lose your scapegoat when the DMs come to nerf your class. "BUT DRUIDS!"

Now that I am done ranting about the constant anti-druid ranting. . . I will again take the moment to applaud the efforts of the team. It not easy to please a community. There are always going to be people who find fault in what you do and no one ever takes the time to say this, so I will.

THANK YOU. You do a thankless, unpaid job, and deal with a bunch of squealing children as thanks for your efforts.

I like these changes. That said, my official position on dragon shape remains:

I do think making dragon druid easier is a mistake, but as someone who respects druid lore, I really think dragon shape ought to be a DM awarded feat. It should remain frightfully imposing and give even more bonuses to damage, ab, and ac. It should be a RARE and FREAKING MAGESTIC thing to see. Perhaps hold it for druid players who respect the lore consistently and hold leadership over a circle for at least a year. SOMETHING so that every time I turn around there aren't fifteen dragons in a fight.

OMG did she just say nerf druids??? I'm saying make respectful RP a reward. I'd actually like to see druids get more AB, and losing dragon shape would provide more flavor. In table top you CAN play a druid that doesn't shift at all and is still formidable. I'd like to see BG have some changes that support a more versatile use of the class. As long as dragon shape is around and other druid builds can't hit anything (and are hit by everything) because the server is built to cater to fighter style power builds (who for some reason don't need to be nerfed? BUT DRUIDS RABBLE RABBLE!), that's what we'll have.
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Re: Coming Soon: Dragon shape changes

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The Shadow Druids approve of these changes!! :dance: :clap: :twisted:

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Re: Coming Soon: Dragon shape changes

Unread post by LivT »

Looking forward to changes but a little ambivalent about what they mean rp wise ^^; even being a dragon druid I know they're a little OP - THOUGH as CooCooCachoo says, nothing compared to the solo builds that can run dungeons by themselves. And yeah, as it's been mentioned in the thread... druid RP hasn't always been uh, on point. So either we'll get a bunch of new druids with strong RP behind them and revive the Druidic rp base, orr... power builders who become dragons without playing much of the druidic lore behind it, and the druids get worse from here.

(FYI also saying this as someone who was pretty sucky at playing a druid for a long time, it's a frank observation not a judgement!)
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Re: Coming Soon: Dragon shape changes

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CooCooCachoo wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 7:08 am I'd still like to see Hierophant customized a bit more for druids. Of course, if you say that out loud people get ignorant and nasty. I swear if I hear, "But blood to water!" one more time. . . Druids don't cast blood to water. Druids don't cast blood to water. DRUIDS DON'T CAST BLOOD TO WATER!!! It's gearing toward cleric makes it less appealing and the built up anti-druid sentiment from a bunch of people who have never PLAYED druid makes it near impossible to broach the subject but here I go again lining up for abuse.
Is it even part of the druid spellbook? I don't recall seeing it on my old gnome druid, but then I probably would have never used it, because I don't really see its effects as all that appealing for such a high level spell (I did use dehydrate, of similar effects, but lower level!). But if it is indeed part of the druid spell book, why wouldn't a druid use it? There may of course be certain gods that would not grant their druids that particular spell, and that's fine. But it's not an evil spell, and even if it was, there are evil druid gods. If it is indeed in the druidic spell book, then I don't see why it wouldn't be used.

This seems to suggest it isn't:
https://wiki.bgtscc.net/index.php?title ... uid_spells

I'll agree that hierophant isn't particularly useful to druid, though. But I don't really see how this dragon shape change really changes that. It allows you to go 5 levels of Hierophant and pick up the weakest version of the dragon, while losing at least one epic feat. For the gain of maybe 2 spellpower (one DC), double damage to Harm, double healing or inscribe rune.

EDIT:
I thoroughly enjoyed druid RP, myself, with my gnome druid of Segojan Earthcaller. It was a druid who was more earth oriented than forest oriented, and with Segojan being the neutral good gnomish deity of Earth and Death, it made for an interesting and somewhat different druid. I stopped playing it because the mechanics are reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally boring. It takes a good three minutes to buff yourself and your companion up, and then you are practically unkillable. I had dragon companion, so I at least had one that did pretty good damage. But I found it really tedious mechanically. It's ridiculously powerful. But soooo slow.
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Re: Coming Soon: Dragon shape changes

Unread post by Steve »

Just to be clear on the hand slot, will this support both gloves and gauntlets?

Also:
Weapon nor Hand Slot items DO NOT transfer EB, AB or Vampiric Regeneration bonuses (Dec. 1, 2019)
Above is currently on the Wiki. So to confirm, EB, AB, Vamp regen and any On Hit and/or extra dmg bonuses will ALL apply to the Wild Shape forms?

Weapons remain not transferring.

Cheers.

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Re: Coming Soon: Dragon shape changes

Unread post by mrm3ntalist »

The difference between the druid builds and other solo builds, is that the druid is pretty much set just with basic items and 0 use of umd. Equip the "other" solo builds with basic items and find out how fast you can make friends with Myrkul.

The changes do help dragon shaped druids - a lot in my opinion. As the experienced player above just mentioned, the current dragon druid's "limitation" is the
you just park and watch, and we can talk OOC for the next thirty minutes during the MISS MISS MISS MISS MISS MISS MISS HIT! OMG YES 30DMG! MISS MISS MISS MISS MISS.
Depending the multiclassing, dragon druids can now get anything between +2 - +4 AB and +3.5 - +7.5 average damage with shop gear. With grandfathered gear or DM rewards, the damage bonus can get closer to 10. I will take those any day over losing some AC, which dragon druid has in abundance.
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Re: Coming Soon: Dragon shape changes

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Steve wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 9:02 am Just to be clear on the hand slot, will this support both gloves and gauntlets?

Also:
Weapon nor Hand Slot items DO NOT transfer EB, AB or Vampiric Regeneration bonuses (Dec. 1, 2019)
Above is currently on the Wiki. So to confirm, EB, AB, Vamp regen and any On Hit and/or extra dmg bonuses will ALL apply to the Wild Shape forms?

Weapons remain not transferring.

Cheers.
It supports both gloves and gauntlets, not weapons. I accounted for 10+ offensive properties, so everything should transfer if i haven't missed anything. Bonuses are applied to all 3 creature weapons (if it has that much).

AB/EB on gloves will not stack with Greater Magic Fang.
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Re: Coming Soon: Dragon shape changes

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Excellent. Thanks for that confirmation!

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Re: Coming Soon: Dragon shape changes

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mrm3ntalist wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 10:02 am Depending the multiclassing, dragon druids can now get anything between +2 - +4 AB and +3.5 - +7.5 average damage with shop gear. With grandfathered gear or DM rewards, the damage bonus can get closer to 10. I will take those any day over losing some AC, which dragon druid has in abundance.
And, if the player chooses 4 levels of Fighter still, and acquiring Unarmed Focus, Specialization and Mastery, that adds up (this used to be the traditional way of getting some more dmg with the flip of Unarmed to Creature Weapon on Wild Shaping).

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Re: Coming Soon: Dragon shape changes

Unread post by mrm3ntalist »

Steve wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 1:04 pm
mrm3ntalist wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 10:02 am Depending the multiclassing, dragon druids can now get anything between +2 - +4 AB and +3.5 - +7.5 average damage with shop gear. With grandfathered gear or DM rewards, the damage bonus can get closer to 10. I will take those any day over losing some AC, which dragon druid has in abundance.
And, if the player chooses 4 levels of Fighter still, and acquiring Unarmed Focus, Specialization and Mastery, that adds up (this used to be the traditional way of getting some more dmg with the flip of Unarmed to Creature Weapon on Wild Shaping).
Correct, the maximum AB/Damage is obtained by mylti-classing with fighter - +4AB (+2BAB +2Unarmed MAstery ), +7.5 damage (+2W.Spec, +2 Unarmed master, +3.5 1d6 gloves)

Multiclassing with CS, gets you less AB and damage, but you can recover some of the lost AC. I like the CS route better, mostly because i can recover the rest with items.
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Re: Coming Soon: Dragon shape changes

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mrm3ntalist wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 2:00 pm Multiclassing with CS, gets you less AB and damage, but you can recover some of the lost AC. I like the CS route better, mostly because i can recover the rest with items.
True, now. But most importantly is that Cavestalker allows for the Druid to be viable in the UD.

But it is worth considering for the non-Dragon Shape Druids to go Druid 21 / Cavestalker 5 / Fighter 4—or just Cavestalker 3—and with a CL of 30 still....

Only real issue is losing all the DEX AC bonus while in Wild Shape—or Shapechange—without having Uncanny Dodge.

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Re: Coming Soon: Dragon shape changes

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CooCooCachoo wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 7:08 am I like the changes. Now maybe Hierophant can actually feel like a prestige class instead of a willfully imposed nerf.

I'd still like to see Hierophant customized a bit more for druids. Of course, if you say that out loud people get ignorant and nasty. I swear if I hear, "But blood to water!" one more time. . . Druids don't cast blood to water. Druids don't cast blood to water. DRUIDS DON'T CAST BLOOD TO WATER!!! It's gearing toward cleric makes it less appealing and the built up anti-druid sentiment from a bunch of people who have never PLAYED druid makes it near impossible to broach the subject but here I go again lining up for abuse.
What would you like to see Hierophant get to make it more appealing to druids?
I play a lot of classes, shammy and druids are just my favorites.
And I love your RP with both. <3
Druid is not overpowered.
Agreed. It was maybe too easy to get really high tank ability, and I'm envious of druids being able to Owl's Insight up to huge DCs, but that does not make it overpowered. Hopefully the changes will make things a bit more even all around.
I do think making dragon druid easier is a mistake, but as someone who respects druid lore, I really think dragon shape ought to be a DM awarded feat. It should remain frightfully imposing and give even more bonuses to damage, ab, and ac. It should be a RARE and FREAKING MAGESTIC thing to see. Perhaps hold it for druid players who respect the lore consistently and hold leadership over a circle for at least a year. SOMETHING so that every time I turn around there aren't fifteen dragons in a fight.
I admit, I've never been a fan of dragon shape. If I was playing a druid, all I'd ever want to turn into would be normal stuff like wolves.

DM reward wouldn't be appropriate (same reason shaman Blood Magic, while once saying it could be gained as a DM reward, had that removed), there'd be accusations of favoritism and all that, unless it was purely cosmetic and offered no differences in stats compared to a normally-acquired form.

It'd probably be better to just make the other forms more competitive against dragon shape, so that people don't just default to it. It was the hope with some of these changes to make that happen, but I'm not sure if that's enough yet without touching up the other ones directly.
I'd like to see BG have some changes that support a more versatile use of the class. As long as dragon shape is around and other druid builds can't hit anything (and are hit by everything) because the server is built to cater to fighter style power builds (who for some reason don't need to be nerfed? BUT DRUIDS RABBLE RABBLE!), that's what we'll have.
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