Northlander Hewing

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Rhifox
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Northlander Hewing

Unread post by Rhifox »

Hello,

With the next patch, there's going to be a few changes made to Northlander Hewing. These changes are:

1. The 50% reduction in Strength mod for polymorph forms, as went in with the last update.

and

2. A maximum cap of 10 damage (30 Strength).

This results in a typical maximum damage boost of around 6-8 point per hit for most polymorph shapes, and 8-10 for most true martials.


NH has long been seen as a very strong, mandatory talent for Strength builds. Based on some math we did staff-side, it is a 10-30% damage increase in almost all circumstances, even considering the loss of attacks and when fighting low AC targets. Combined with its ability to be used alongside other modes like Combat Expertise, this was considered too strong for one feat (especially a non-epic one).

The changes will hopefully make it a less mandatory talent, and allow more competition with other feats. It will still be a significant damage increase for most characters even after this change. However, the DM team will be willing to offer 100% RCRs for anyone who feels they need to change out this feat because of these changes. This offer will be available for one month, until March 1st.
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mrm3ntalist
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Re: Northlander Hewing

Unread post by mrm3ntalist »

Rhifox wrote: Sat Jan 29, 2022 1:44 amHowever, the DM team will be willing to offer 100% RCRs for anyone who feels they need to change out this feat because of these changes. This offer will be available for one month, until March 1st.
This is nice, but there are no DMs online
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Re: Northlander Hewing

Unread post by DM Winter »

mrm3ntalist wrote: Sat Jan 29, 2022 12:23 pm
Rhifox wrote: Sat Jan 29, 2022 1:44 amHowever, the DM team will be willing to offer 100% RCRs for anyone who feels they need to change out this feat because of these changes. This offer will be available for one month, until March 1st.
This is nice, but there are no DMs online
I've literally been on since 8am EST today :(

But anyway. Just to also inform everyone. I'm often online early afternoon GMT and sometimes late EST. Feel free to poke me in game if you qualify for it and are looking to RCR!
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Re: Northlander Hewing

Unread post by DM Winter »

Quick bump to this post. NH 100% RCRs will become officially unavailable come March 1st (This next tuesday). If you've been putting it off, do understand that after that date you'll not be entitled to the RCR, so if you intend to take it, do so within the next couple of days!

If you're unsure how to contact a DM regarding it, the easiest way is to find one online and ask them! (can use the "/d MESSAGE" to speak directly with DMs, if there's one online). Tomorrow (sunday) is a good bet that there'll be some DMs online.

I'll be out of town the next few days up until the night of March 1st, so in the early morning (EST) of March 2nd I'll be online just to handle any last RCRs, will stay online until about 11 EST.
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Re: Northlander Hewing

Unread post by izzul »

DM Winter wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 1:09 am Quick bump to this post. NH 100% RCRs will become officially unavailable come March 1st (This next tuesday). If you've been putting it off, do understand that after that date you'll not be entitled to the RCR, so if you intend to take it, do so within the next couple of days!

If you're unsure how to contact a DM regarding it, the easiest way is to find one online and ask them! (can use the "/d MESSAGE" to speak directly with DMs, if there's one online). Tomorrow (sunday) is a good bet that there'll be some DMs online.

I'll be out of town the next few days up until the night of March 1st, so in the early morning (EST) of March 2nd I'll be online just to handle any last RCRs, will stay online until about 11 EST.
Thank you, i will try my best to finish my barbarian NH 100% RCR by then and find any DM online :pray:
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Re: Northlander Hewing

Unread post by Steve »

Here is something I've been thinking about/working out, related to Northander Hewing and the recent changes. I know I missed out on the free 100% RCR, but I couldn't reach a secure opinion until I had enough Levels in my NH + Polymorphing PC. Here is what I'm seeing:

Northlander Hewing and Polymorph Use
It is important to make a careful calculation of APR and DMG output, in order to determine if Northlander Hewing is really worth the cost, because it only gives a Polymorphing build 50% STR dmg.

Take for example the Shifter form Owlbear, that at maximum can have 36 STR (Base STR 23 + lvl 20 Shifter (+10 STR increase) +3 STR item/buff). At 50% reduction, that is +6 dmg (STR 36 = 13 modifier/2). At max 6 APR build, reduced to 2/3 by Northlander Hewing, your 4 attacks will gain in total only 24 dmg when using NH. Thus, if the builds average DMG is 24 or above WITHOUT NH active, then likely that 5th or 6th attack hitting will net your build an equal amount of DMG that one gains in the entire Round using NH. However, the more Attacks Per Round a Build has, you 1) have more chances of landing a Critical; 2) any On Hit effects have a greater percentage of landing. In this example, should the average DMG be FAR HIGHER than 24 per hit, it makes NOT using NH even more of a sound decision. Because one must also weigh the loss of -2 AC. Lastly, if the build doesn’t even reach 6 APR in the plan, then NH is definitely not worth it, because 3 APR is too few to add up the DMG per round gained by additional attacks.

From this arm chair analysis, using NH is only beneficial to a build plan when combined with Combat Expertise/ICE. Then, the build can balance out the AC loss, which is a serious issue with Shapes because of general low AC except 1-2 outliers. And, this is also just a analysis of a highest STR form, where there are many far lower STR forms that have weapon dmg differences that “make up” for a reliance on pure STR. Those too can be argued to be more efficient builds now again without NH, since the dmg isn’t reduced.

Also from this analysis, if say the NH 50% nerf was rounded up for DMG, maybe that extra 1 point of DMG would be enough to make it feel like a true gain, by taking NH if you build is a Polymorpher/Shifter/Wild Shaper.

I am not arguing that NH wasn’t overturned before, and essentially was a “always take it” Feat for any Build using STR as main source for DMG. But after the nerf to 50%, while I absolutely agree it warranted being tuned down, 50% is imho too much. Or, the AC malus needs to be removed, now. Or, the 2/3 APR reduction need to be tuned or removed (perhaps just remove 1 attack?).

I know this is coming late to the game, but nothing should be set in stone, if the argument to change it again is sound.

So…is my argument sound? Hahaha?

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Re: Northlander Hewing

Unread post by Wyatt »

From the player side of things I thinks perhaps removing or even halving the AC penalty would be a nice compromise for removing such a large chunk of damage. Maybe lessen the sting a bit. Or perhaps instead of 50% dmg it could do 66% or 75% and drop AC penalty to 1. Just to meet in the middle. Some idle thoughts :D
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Re: Northlander Hewing

Unread post by Ewe »

Yeah NH + ICE is ridiculous. An alternative approach was to make NH a proper "mode" and thus not able to be used with ICE at all. This is where it landed instead, though.

We ran the numbers and there were a bunch of charts and spread sheets, etc. I don't have those handy, but basically in almost every case for content on our server you were seeing a very high damage boost for a single pre-epic feat, which doesn't make a lot of sense.

An always on feat giving 10-30% bonus damage for a single pre-epic feat with no other feat prereqs allowing huge synergy with ICE was simply over tuned and limited design space for future martial feats.
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Re: Northlander Hewing

Unread post by Ewe »

Also, wrt shapeshift forms. I think there's a bug regarding not being able to make your claws bypass certain DR types (which I think is the more relevant complaint). It's possible that may be fixed in the future (alongside possibly new feats or item properties with those feats).
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Re: Northlander Hewing

Unread post by Steve »

Ewe wrote: Mon Mar 21, 2022 11:49 am Also, wrt shapeshift forms. I think there's a bug regarding not being able to make your claws bypass certain DR types (which I think is the more relevant complaint). It's possible that may be fixed in the future (alongside possibly new feats or item properties with those feats).
While this bug you mention maybe a factor, what I was pointing out is that the changes for Polymorphers arguably make NH not worth it, at least definitely not at the end of a Builds leveling, when overall STR+ combined with APR.

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Re: Northlander Hewing

Unread post by Calodan »

I totally miss the on hit properties. Damage is great from a barbarian standpoint not even mad about AC malus if we can get them On Hit properties back. They were SPICY!
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Re: Northlander Hewing

Unread post by Wyatt »

Ewe wrote: Mon Mar 21, 2022 11:28 am Yeah NH + ICE is ridiculous. An alternative approach was to make NH a proper "mode" and thus not able to be used with ICE at all. This is where it landed instead, though.

We ran the numbers and there were a bunch of charts and spread sheets, etc. I don't have those handy, but basically in almost every case for content on our server you were seeing a very high damage boost for a single pre-epic feat, which doesn't make a lot of sense.

An always on feat giving 10-30% bonus damage for a single pre-epic feat with no other feat prereqs allowing huge synergy with ICE was simply over tuned and limited design space for future martial feats.
I don't think anyone is claiming that Northlander Hewing was in need of down turning, but rather just asking if it is possible that it was overtuned downward. After having played with it for the last 10-15 levels at this point I am inclined to agree with Steve. In its current iteration it isn't worth the loss of the attack and the ac bump, at least for me. Just a single voice in the wilderness though. :)
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Re: Northlander Hewing

Unread post by Wyatt »

Calodan wrote: Mon Mar 21, 2022 1:39 pm I totally miss the on hit properties. Damage is great from a barbarian standpoint not even mad about AC malus if we can get them On Hit properties back. They were SPICY!
I believe the whirlwind/bleed/knockdown all still function. At least they do for me. If that is what you are referring to.
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Re: Northlander Hewing

Unread post by Calodan »

Wyatt wrote: Mon Mar 21, 2022 2:49 pm
Calodan wrote: Mon Mar 21, 2022 1:39 pm I totally miss the on hit properties. Damage is great from a barbarian standpoint not even mad about AC malus if we can get them On Hit properties back. They were SPICY!
I believe the whirlwind/bleed/knockdown all still function. At least they do for me. If that is what you are referring to.
I am not seeing any notes of it proc'ing or effects while using last night. I think the animations are still there but are not actually doing anything.
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Re: Northlander Hewing

Unread post by Wyatt »

Calodan wrote: Mon Mar 21, 2022 3:26 pm
Wyatt wrote: Mon Mar 21, 2022 2:49 pm
Calodan wrote: Mon Mar 21, 2022 1:39 pm I totally miss the on hit properties. Damage is great from a barbarian standpoint not even mad about AC malus if we can get them On Hit properties back. They were SPICY!
I believe the whirlwind/bleed/knockdown all still function. At least they do for me. If that is what you are referring to.
I am not seeing any notes of it proc'ing or effects while using last night. I think the animations are still there but are not actually doing anything.
I don't see it in combat log but I see dmg pop up on multiple mobs for whirlwinds and I get the message for slamming the ground and seeing knockdowns for blunt.
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