Suggestion: Apperance Changer Outfits

Suggestions for Aesthetics, Graphical Changes, and Other Media Team Items

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DaloLorn
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Re: Suggestion: Apperance Changer Outfits

Unread post by DaloLorn »

DM Ghost wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 8:00 pm There is a disclaimer in the appearance changer kit to be reasonable in appearance choices. This means if you are wearing an armour, you should be picking an appearance that looks like an armour. I think adding ability to change between appearances just further departs from this request to choose reasonable appearances for the item type.
And yet, it does not actually increase the degree to which you can violate that rule, nor does it particularly encourage you to do so.

I had, at one point, played a druidess with a suit of mithral plate reskinned to look like the torn-up, ragged outfit you might expect from someone detached from civilization and in tune with nature. I handwaved the resulting AC increase away as... something very monk-like, actually, since I'd always seen her as a druid/monk from day 1, but wasn't allowed to play that class combination. I think it was that she was really good at deflecting blows with her staff or something. (Needless to say, she now has monk levels, so the stats on her clothes more accurately mesh with the visuals. She still has roughly the same amount of unshifted AC. :lol:)

At the moment, a number of characters face the exact opposite issue with regards to reasonable appearances. It's so hard to sensibly depict a broad wardrobe without incurring dozens of pounds of added weight and reserving entire pages of their inventory to having alternate outfits. (I actually do this on a number of my characters.) The proposed outfit system would resolve that issue completely; as for those few who might view it as encouragement to violate the appearance rules, this sort of encouragement is liable to make them so blatant about it that they'll just land themselves in trouble and get moderated away.
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Aspect of Sorrow
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Re: Suggestion: Apperance Changer Outfits

Unread post by Aspect of Sorrow »

If you're not policing the rule then simply remove the rule, else put in the work toward mechanical enforcement.
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Ghost
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Re: Suggestion: Apperance Changer Outfits

Unread post by Ghost »

It's effectively the Play-Your-Sheet rule, though. It's not exactly easy for us DMs to catch either, as we'd have to keep inspecting everyone.

Would I like mechanical enforcement on the matter? Yes. Until such time as someone has time, energy and skill to put that into place, I'd simply suggest that people respect appearances according to item type.
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zhazz
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Re: Suggestion: Apperance Changer Outfits

Unread post by zhazz »

This is the first time I've heard any mention of cosmetic choices through items being part of the "play your character sheet" rule. That seems the kind of rule that would fit a heavy or high RP server, which BGTSCC is not. We're a low-to-medium RP server. It is also a very vague rule, subject to the whim and fancy of whatever DM happen to interact with the character.

If cosmetic choices are part of the "play your character sheet" rule, then the entire disguise system goes out the window, or is at least off-limits for a lot of characters. Rather than simply role playing wearing a leather or chain mail armour under a cloth tunic, by changing the appearance of the former, the player now has to change to an actual cloth armour type, reducing their survivability due to a mechanical limitation of the game. To do otherwise they risk getting a bap on the head by a DM for not playing their character sheet.



Can an easy-to-use outfit changer, as proposed, be abused?
Yes. Anything can be abused.

Should legitimate uses of it be barred because of "risk" of abuse?
No. Punish the abusers instead.

Will it provide value to the player base, while anti-abuse measures are found?
Yes! The responses in this thread is evidence of it.



In the end it is about mutual respect and trust. Let players have tools to help facilitate role play and character/faction identity, and trust they won't do something too egregious with it. Any players not respecting that mutual agreement should pay the price individually, not the collective.
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sweetlikesplenda
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Re: Suggestion: Apperance Changer Outfits

Unread post by sweetlikesplenda »

There is a message inside the appearance changer tool that says not to abuse the appeance to depicted the wrong armor type. For example, changing full plate to look like a robe or cloth. It's like the first thing you see when you use the tool.
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zhazz
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Re: Suggestion: Apperance Changer Outfits

Unread post by zhazz »

Fair enough. But if it is supposed to be a server rule, then it should it be listed on the forums as an actual rule, and not be a pseudo-thing added to an in-game tool.

Still doesn't solve the issue of how it affects disguises for certain characters due to other game mechanic limitations.

Still don't think it should have influence on, whether or not, a quality of life tool is added for the player base to use for legitimate purposes.
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Rhifox
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Re: Suggestion: Apperance Changer Outfits

Unread post by Rhifox »

zhazz wrote: Fri Apr 15, 2022 6:26 amFair enough. But if it is supposed to be a server rule, then it should it be listed on the forums as an actual rule, and not be a pseudo-thing added to an in-game tool.
It is covered under the broad category of play-your-sheet, as said. If you are wearing full plate armor, then you should, you know, be wearing full plate armor.
Still doesn't solve the issue of how it affects disguises for certain characters due to other game mechanic limitations.
The rule is about keeping things within reason for what is realistically possible. Disguising and hiding certain armor types with certain external clothes is fine. That is justifiable. Turning a full-plate armor into a skin-revealing dress isn't (though even then, use of illusion spells could allow for it).
Still don't think it should have influence on, whether or not, a quality of life tool is added for the player base to use for legitimate purposes.
I agree. Adding the ability to save outfits and transfer them to other items doesn't really make the problem, so much as it is, any worse than it already is now. I for one am tired of having to maintain a notepad file of every one of my appearance selections and their color palettes.
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renshouj
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Re: Suggestion: Apperance Changer Outfits

Unread post by renshouj »

Personally, I think the quality of life for the entire server far outweighs the potential abuse a few might do. Especially considering nothing is currently stopping them from even doing it right now.

Though yeah, to me it makes sense to fall under play your sheet. I don't need to repeat Rhifox's words, but like... If your char is wearing plate armor, you should visually be wearing plate armor. Not just common sense, but perfectly falls under play your sheet.

Lastly, this suggestion could actually get off the ground if someone stepped forward to do it :P
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zhazz
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Re: Suggestion: Apperance Changer Outfits

Unread post by zhazz »

Rhifox wrote: Fri Apr 15, 2022 6:33 am
Still doesn't solve the issue of how it affects disguises for certain characters due to other game mechanic limitations.
The rule is about keeping things within reason for what is realistically possible. Disguising and hiding certain armor types with certain external clothes is fine. That is justifiable. Turning a full-plate armor into a skin-revealing dress isn't (though even then, use of illusion spells could allow for it).
In full agreement here. The point I'm trying to make, and probably failing at so far, is that actual rules should be written in the rules section, and not be solely presented on an in-game tool. In this case it entails extending the rules text on the forums to also include what is on the in-game tool for the sake of clarity.

It's one of those things, which makes sense once it's been explained, but shouldn't need explaining.
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Lambe
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Re: Suggestion: Apperance Changer Outfits

Unread post by Lambe »

I like having the ability to save outfit sets, if only for the ease of reverting to a 'completed' outfit after trying out and editing a few choices. Even if it is done on throwaway cheap gear, having to redo the choices for each of the actual armor pieces can get tedious.
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Re: Suggestion: Apperance Changer Outfits

Unread post by Ithilan »

I really support this as well, ive had half my inventory full of RP items for years.

But my main argument would be due to helmets, we have a lot of the spell casting main stat items being on helmets, like the +4 int and wisdom circlets. For many characters swapping these for RP reasons have a mechanical consequence in losing spells slots. Re-arranging my spellbook because it rains and my character would pull up a hood, gets really old.

To the point where weather and similiar effects dont have the intended IC reactions I feel. With a tool like this it would be a lot easier. Same applies to other bonus spell slot gear at large, which many of us are addicted to :ugeek:
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renshouj
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Re: Suggestion: Apperance Changer Outfits

Unread post by renshouj »

At this point, after thinking about it more, I end up feeling that the problem isn't actually changing the appearance. The problem is actually the inventory space. My own "main" char, I have her base outfit and 4 other outfits. That takes up half of an inventory window. Plus other RP items.

I've come to the conclusion that I actually dislike the idea that someone can change their appearance of their "main clothes" (AKA ones with stats) so easily.

I know devs were actually working on giving us item bags, and to be honest I think that'd be the best solution, so maybe just a slight push for that instead of a whole new system. Both are QoL increases, but I think item bags and, thus, better inventory management, is the actual way to go
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zhazz
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Re: Suggestion: Apperance Changer Outfits

Unread post by zhazz »

renshouj wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 6:13 pm At this point, after thinking about it more, I end up feeling that the problem isn't actually changing the appearance. The problem is actually the inventory space. My own "main" char, I have her base outfit and 4 other outfits. That takes up half of an inventory window. Plus other RP items.

I've come to the conclusion that I actually dislike the idea that someone can change their appearance of their "main clothes" (AKA ones with stats) so easily.

I know devs were actually working on giving us item bags, and to be honest I think that'd be the best solution, so maybe just a slight push for that instead of a whole new system. Both are QoL increases, but I think item bags and, thus, better inventory management, is the actual way to go
Changing the appearance is an issue for those wishing to portray a faction identity. When a faction role plays in low level areas (patrols, measuring new recruits, etc) it won't be an issue in sub-par gear, due to the level difference. However, it is very much an issue at higher level areas, where the stats on gear is necessary. It might be possible in theory to keep an identical gear set for that purpose, but the reality is that a lot of items are either too rare for that to happen, or it is a considerable investment of several million gold.

While I agree that a gold sink is necessary, and even welcome, I don't think stylistic choices for the sake of role play should be one of them.

Weight and inventory space are also factors to consider. While the latter can be overcome by storage bags, the former cannot. Not unless we get Bags of Holding, which is unlikely. This means the only viable option for low strength characters wanting multiple outfits for the role play is to store each at a vendor or on their horse. Both of which make little sense in-character to do, and are an added hassle to have to keep track of and move back and forth.


I do, however, agree that changing the appearance of the main outfit at will is likely a bit too much. While I will keep it as is in the suggestion, I think the more sensible option is to only allow applying an outfit appearance in places where the Appearance Changer can also be used. This introduces some planning and forethought to the outfit worn.


All in all it is about quality of life, and creating or expanding upon opportunities for role play.
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Relyth Ravan'Thala - Bear of an Elf
Timothy Daleson - Paladin Wand Maker
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