The Build in question
A quick glance from my untrained eyes and everything seemed okay, however I've ran into some problems while leveling.
1. The skills don't match up. There's two sets of Any skills on there, I'm required to take Lore Arcana 8, Lore Geography 4, and Lore Nature 4 for one of the PRC's. I also can't put the 4 points to bring Spellcraft to 4 at level 1 as required.
2. The feats don't look right. At level 3, I'm supposed to take Curse Song on a Rogue level. While meeting the requirements for it, the feat doesn't appear for selection. Logging out and back in didn't fix this. Another issue with the builds involving feats comes with the Battle Caster feat you take at level 12, without taking the Medium Armor Proficiency feat then this feat is worthless right? The build also assumes you will be using a shield (as noted in the build description's AC math) and I recall hearing that Bards don't receive shield proficiency for free on BGTSCC, though the Wiki says they do. So that could be incorrect on my part.
So is this build even viable or can be made to be for BGTSCC? Should I scrap the idea of using it all? I'd really like a Bard focused on songs more than actually hitting things, as it just sounds fun from an RP perspective. The few CHA based builds I've seen looking really boring to level though, with a lot of the goodies coming very late game. As I would be leveling from level 4, that just seems too rough to bother with.
What can be done to make this Bard build usable on BGTSCC?
-
Zahlfire
- Recognized Donor
- Posts: 38
- Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2017 2:01 pm
-
Steve
- Recognized Donor
- Posts: 8193
- Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2015 5:42 am
- Location: Paradise in GMT +1
Re: What can be done to make this Bard build usable on BGTSC
I made up that build, and yes, there are some quirks in it. Bard specific Feats have to be taken on Bard levels, so switch a Bard level to Level 3, Rogue level to Level 4.
You might also have to put a Bard level on 12 for Battle Caster.
Switch the Skills around, easy.
And yes, Battle Caster may be useless here because of lack of Medium Armor Feat—I probably used another version/Build as a template for this one, and too quickly, as you've rightfully pointed out the mistakes.
You might also have to put a Bard level on 12 for Battle Caster.
Switch the Skills around, easy.
And yes, Battle Caster may be useless here because of lack of Medium Armor Feat—I probably used another version/Build as a template for this one, and too quickly, as you've rightfully pointed out the mistakes.
Essaar Arkae
Tsarzyn Ek'cla - Superiority Supreme
Khelboros Wyrmstone
-
Zahlfire
- Recognized Donor
- Posts: 38
- Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2017 2:01 pm
Re: What can be done to make this Bard build usable on BGTSC
Hey, thanks for the response! I didn't know you were scuda on that site. Thanks for the pointers on how to fix it up. I suppose I can replace the Battlecaster feat with something more worthwhile then huh? There's really no room to slip in the Medium Armor Prof. feat anywhere.
-
Steve
- Recognized Donor
- Posts: 8193
- Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2015 5:42 am
- Location: Paradise in GMT +1
Re: What can be done to make this Bard build usable on BGTSC
Bards do get Light/Heavy Shield proficiency.
The build should have 21 basic Song uses, but should have 26 if Dissonent Chord has been fixed to provide Song use progression. That Extra Music feat is important to have, but you could drop it for Medium Armor Prof.
You could also drop Able Learner and thus drop Diplomacy and Heal points, and squeeze in Medium Armor.
But you could also just go fishing for Mithral Chainmail, which is 6/4—mith plate is 8/3—so you'd be losing 2 pts of AC, though, with MIrror Immages and Displacement, few things will be hitting your Bard anyway (and that's only really in the Epic CR areas).
Now, if you play the Bard not as a melee Bard but as support, you could also switch STR for DEX, use a Crossbow. Flavor it up!!
The build should have 21 basic Song uses, but should have 26 if Dissonent Chord has been fixed to provide Song use progression. That Extra Music feat is important to have, but you could drop it for Medium Armor Prof.
You could also drop Able Learner and thus drop Diplomacy and Heal points, and squeeze in Medium Armor.
But you could also just go fishing for Mithral Chainmail, which is 6/4—mith plate is 8/3—so you'd be losing 2 pts of AC, though, with MIrror Immages and Displacement, few things will be hitting your Bard anyway (and that's only really in the Epic CR areas).
Now, if you play the Bard not as a melee Bard but as support, you could also switch STR for DEX, use a Crossbow. Flavor it up!!
Essaar Arkae
Tsarzyn Ek'cla - Superiority Supreme
Khelboros Wyrmstone
-
Zahlfire
- Recognized Donor
- Posts: 38
- Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2017 2:01 pm
Re: What can be done to make this Bard build usable on BGTSC
I definitely think I'll go for the Mithral Chainmail. It'll be a while, but I don't intend to get into the Epic levels for a while (I'm a slow leveler, too much RP and song-making.) So I should have plenty of time to save up/find that armor. Now, since I'm going to settle for a mithral medium(light) armor, what do you suggest I should pick instead of Battlecaster? I was going through the feats and Skill Focus Perform, Dragonsong (if it's on the server), and Ability Focus Bard Songs seem like good replacements. I feel like the Ability Focus would be the most beneficial one though.
-
Sun Wukong
- Posts: 2837
- Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2017 3:05 pm
Re: What can be done to make this Bard build usable on BGTSC
What does the build get from the rogue dip? I do not think it is anything else than evasion... You have not even gone for Expose Weakness, so it all makes me scratch my head.
Anyhow: http://nwn2db.com/build/?276695 <= Here is one build, it will make use of the Clap of Thunder reserve feat to deal damage, so pick a sonic spell as one of your level 2 spells (Sound Burst) and you can switch it away when you gain access to higher level sound spells. (Greater Shout at level 6 sprungs to mind.)
You might want to consider using Inspire Jarring (-2 to enemy will saves), Curse Song (-2~ to will saves), combined with Mind Fog (lvl 5, -10 to will saves on a failed save) and Hold Person, Mass (lvl 6) to keep a mob of enemies pinned on the ground while you pepper them with Clap of Thunder or possibly Finish them off with Song or Requiem or Storm of Vengeance. Or just let your party to do it.
But there are ways to improve the above build, namely by leaving the levels of Dissonant Chord behind and taking some levels of Cleric or Blackguard instead.
http://nwn2db.com/build/?276695 <= Here is the cleric version, you can cherry pick deity domains for things you would like to have, like water domain for evasion or perhaps darkness for Blindfight or things like that. This build works just as the one above does, you will just have Inspire Jarring earlier and Song of Requiem little bit later, not to mention +10 to your AC thanks to Divine Shield.
http://nwn2db.com/build/?276698 <= Here is the blackguard version, this one gains the +10 AC with Divine Shield just as the above build does, then your charisma modifier as bonus to all your saves, and an aura that lowers enemy saves by -2. As a negative I could mention the very late Curse Song, but over all I would think this build is the best one you could go for.
As for armor, just go to Doron Amar and purchase the Melodic Chainmail from the blacksmith.
Anyhow: http://nwn2db.com/build/?276695 <= Here is one build, it will make use of the Clap of Thunder reserve feat to deal damage, so pick a sonic spell as one of your level 2 spells (Sound Burst) and you can switch it away when you gain access to higher level sound spells. (Greater Shout at level 6 sprungs to mind.)
The Clap of Thunder reserve feat is a way for you to deal damage when your AB and damage output remains relatively low.Starting at 8th level, and every three levels after, bards can replace one known spell with a new spell of the same level. The replaced spell must be two spell levels below what the bard can currently cast (1st level spell at 8, 1st or 2nd level spell at 11, 1st or 2nd or 3rd level spell at 14, and so forth)
You might want to consider using Inspire Jarring (-2 to enemy will saves), Curse Song (-2~ to will saves), combined with Mind Fog (lvl 5, -10 to will saves on a failed save) and Hold Person, Mass (lvl 6) to keep a mob of enemies pinned on the ground while you pepper them with Clap of Thunder or possibly Finish them off with Song or Requiem or Storm of Vengeance. Or just let your party to do it.
But there are ways to improve the above build, namely by leaving the levels of Dissonant Chord behind and taking some levels of Cleric or Blackguard instead.
http://nwn2db.com/build/?276695 <= Here is the cleric version, you can cherry pick deity domains for things you would like to have, like water domain for evasion or perhaps darkness for Blindfight or things like that. This build works just as the one above does, you will just have Inspire Jarring earlier and Song of Requiem little bit later, not to mention +10 to your AC thanks to Divine Shield.
http://nwn2db.com/build/?276698 <= Here is the blackguard version, this one gains the +10 AC with Divine Shield just as the above build does, then your charisma modifier as bonus to all your saves, and an aura that lowers enemy saves by -2. As a negative I could mention the very late Curse Song, but over all I would think this build is the best one you could go for.
As for armor, just go to Doron Amar and purchase the Melodic Chainmail from the blacksmith.
" I am no longer here, the elves of the Sword Coast are just far too horrible... "
- Elminster, probably.
-
Theodore01
- Recognized Donor
- Posts: 2927
- Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2011 5:32 pm
Re: What can be done to make this Bard build usable on BGTSC
If you aim for a m-chainmail go for DEX 14 +4 (from spell).
Combat expertise and Imp.CE could be useful. (req. INT 13),
Dragonsong isn't available.
Blindfight is nice to have.
Combat expertise and Imp.CE could be useful. (req. INT 13),
Dragonsong isn't available.
Blindfight is nice to have.
-
chad878262
- Posts: 9332
- Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2014 6:55 pm
Re: What can be done to make this Bard build usable on BGTSC
My advice (which is in agreement with Sun Wukong):
1. Drop STR to 12 in favor of DEX 14. You have two points left, drop either WIS or CON by 1 point and raise starting CHA to 17 (final stat 26, 30 after Nixie's Grace). I recommend dropping CON unless you plan on using a +2 CON item with other benefits. Wear some item that grants +2 CHA for bonus spells, Nixie's Grace will improve DC's when cast, but won't help with extra spells.
2. Evasion is powerful enough on it's own, but if you don't mind being evil Blackguard is a great choice. Between BG Aura, Jarring and Curse Song (plus Cloud of Bewilderment when needed) you can be a potent DC Caster and then (slowly) whittle away HP with Clap of Thunder. If you don't want to be evil than you lose the equivalent of +2 DC and you need all you can get with limited spells, but RP first and Rogue is not a bad choice. Another option for you might be Dragon Disciple, which for 10 levels with practiced caster is pretty decent for a Charisma Bard: viewtopic.php?f=496&t=61549&start=0 Pretty sure you might be able to go B5/DD10/SS10/DC5, thought I have not reviewed them all to try it yet. If not interested in Dragon Disciple or evil, I would probably take rogue for evasion too.
Here is another example I built a while back which just included B/SS/DC, no fourth class. Focused on getting high CHA and bard song focuses.
http://nwn2db.com/build/?227715
1. Drop STR to 12 in favor of DEX 14. You have two points left, drop either WIS or CON by 1 point and raise starting CHA to 17 (final stat 26, 30 after Nixie's Grace). I recommend dropping CON unless you plan on using a +2 CON item with other benefits. Wear some item that grants +2 CHA for bonus spells, Nixie's Grace will improve DC's when cast, but won't help with extra spells.
2. Evasion is powerful enough on it's own, but if you don't mind being evil Blackguard is a great choice. Between BG Aura, Jarring and Curse Song (plus Cloud of Bewilderment when needed) you can be a potent DC Caster and then (slowly) whittle away HP with Clap of Thunder. If you don't want to be evil than you lose the equivalent of +2 DC and you need all you can get with limited spells, but RP first and Rogue is not a bad choice. Another option for you might be Dragon Disciple, which for 10 levels with practiced caster is pretty decent for a Charisma Bard: viewtopic.php?f=496&t=61549&start=0 Pretty sure you might be able to go B5/DD10/SS10/DC5, thought I have not reviewed them all to try it yet. If not interested in Dragon Disciple or evil, I would probably take rogue for evasion too.
Here is another example I built a while back which just included B/SS/DC, no fourth class. Focused on getting high CHA and bard song focuses.
http://nwn2db.com/build/?227715
Chord Silverstrings - Bard and OSR Squire / Tarent Nefzen - Arcane Wand Merchant and Master Alchemist / Irrace Arkentlar - Drow Adventurer / Finneaus Du'Veil - Gem Merchant and Executive Officer of SCCE
Tarent's Wands and Elixirs
A Wand Crafter's guide to using wands
Tarent's Wands and Elixirs
A Wand Crafter's guide to using wands
-
Sun Wukong
- Posts: 2837
- Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2017 3:05 pm
Re: What can be done to make this Bard build usable on BGTSC
Another thing to consider is how Bards can be decent enough Summoners actually.
A Bard 26/Thaumathurgist 4 is surprisingly powerful summoner thanks to their Legionnaire's March song, because with it your Summon Creature VI will have 21 BAB because that is your BAB and get +4 damage per hit on top. If you combine it with Inspire Courage for +6 AB and damage, not to mention Concealment and Haste from your spell selection, and possibly the Beckon the Frozen feat for additional +1d6 cold damage you got one nasty summon.
And if you go for Epic Spell Focus (Conjuration) your base summon should be in line with the unboosted Summon Creature VIII summon.
For example if you summon the Fire Elemental with Summon Creature VIII, you will get:
196 HP
25 AC,
+19/+14/+9 (BAB of 12)
2d8 + 5 (Strength) + 2d8 (Fire) = 23~
If you add all bard/thaumathurge buffs:
228 (HP) (+4 Con from Augment Summoning)
+31 (Cat's Grace, Mage Armor from Shadow Conjuration)
+40/+35/+30/+25/+20 (BAB of 21 from Legionnaire's March, +4 Greater Heroism, +2 from Cat's Grace, +6 AB from Inspire Courage)
2d8 + 7 (Augment Summoning Strength) + 2d8 (Fire) + 4 (Legionnaire's March) + 6 (Inspire Courage) + 1d6 (Cold, Beckon the Frozen) = 38.5~
Thus if you keep your summon alive by providing healing and concealment, I believe it can tank it out and dish out some damage more than well.
Now, you would not have to go for some high charisma build to pull it off either, you could go for the more traditional strength based Bard and just fight alongside with your summon. But you could go for high charisma and make use of the previously mentioned Mass Hold Person Strategy with your Clap of Thunder. You would even gain additional two epic feats.
But you would lose the Stormlord flavor.
Thus you have possibilities to go for.
A Bard 26/Thaumathurgist 4 is surprisingly powerful summoner thanks to their Legionnaire's March song, because with it your Summon Creature VI will have 21 BAB because that is your BAB and get +4 damage per hit on top. If you combine it with Inspire Courage for +6 AB and damage, not to mention Concealment and Haste from your spell selection, and possibly the Beckon the Frozen feat for additional +1d6 cold damage you got one nasty summon.
And if you go for Epic Spell Focus (Conjuration) your base summon should be in line with the unboosted Summon Creature VIII summon.
For example if you summon the Fire Elemental with Summon Creature VIII, you will get:
196 HP
25 AC,
+19/+14/+9 (BAB of 12)
2d8 + 5 (Strength) + 2d8 (Fire) = 23~
If you add all bard/thaumathurge buffs:
228 (HP) (+4 Con from Augment Summoning)
+31 (Cat's Grace, Mage Armor from Shadow Conjuration)
+40/+35/+30/+25/+20 (BAB of 21 from Legionnaire's March, +4 Greater Heroism, +2 from Cat's Grace, +6 AB from Inspire Courage)
2d8 + 7 (Augment Summoning Strength) + 2d8 (Fire) + 4 (Legionnaire's March) + 6 (Inspire Courage) + 1d6 (Cold, Beckon the Frozen) = 38.5~
Thus if you keep your summon alive by providing healing and concealment, I believe it can tank it out and dish out some damage more than well.
Now, you would not have to go for some high charisma build to pull it off either, you could go for the more traditional strength based Bard and just fight alongside with your summon. But you could go for high charisma and make use of the previously mentioned Mass Hold Person Strategy with your Clap of Thunder. You would even gain additional two epic feats.
But you would lose the Stormlord flavor.
Thus you have possibilities to go for.
" I am no longer here, the elves of the Sword Coast are just far too horrible... "
- Elminster, probably.
-
chad878262
- Posts: 9332
- Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2014 6:55 pm
Re: What can be done to make this Bard build usable on BGTSC
You also have to consider that you have limited number of spell slots as a bard. Items can help, but on my STR bard with 18 CHA (with a +3 CHA item) and Laurel Crown, Ysridians Touch gloves and a ring with bonus bard spells he has 4/5/6/6/7/5/4 (0-6th level spell slots). While being a summoner can work, keeping up displacement/ethereal visage and haste will not last very long. Ghostly Visage might be an option since it lasts minute/level, but only gives 10% concealment instead of 50%. Wands of displacement are relatively cheap and could be used on an as needed basis for 54 seconds of displacement per charge.
Chord Silverstrings - Bard and OSR Squire / Tarent Nefzen - Arcane Wand Merchant and Master Alchemist / Irrace Arkentlar - Drow Adventurer / Finneaus Du'Veil - Gem Merchant and Executive Officer of SCCE
Tarent's Wands and Elixirs
A Wand Crafter's guide to using wands
Tarent's Wands and Elixirs
A Wand Crafter's guide to using wands
-
Sun Wukong
- Posts: 2837
- Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2017 3:05 pm
Re: What can be done to make this Bard build usable on BGTSC
Actually, if you can fit in Craft Wand feat and decently high UMD skill, you could basically turn all the scrolls you find into magical wands to buff up your summon.
Not to mention that eventually you will get more or less all the equipment you could ever hope to have, and thus any loot you find can be turned into wands.
Not to mention that eventually you will get more or less all the equipment you could ever hope to have, and thus any loot you find can be turned into wands.
" I am no longer here, the elves of the Sword Coast are just far too horrible... "
- Elminster, probably.
-
Darkcloud777
- Posts: 891
- Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:22 pm
Re: What can be done to make this Bard build usable on BGTSC
I have a set of mitral chain mail I will sell cheap. 10 bags sound fair to you?Zahlfire wrote:I definitely think I'll go for the Mithral Chainmail. It'll be a while, but I don't intend to get into the Epic levels for a while (I'm a slow leveler, too much RP and song-making.) So I should have plenty of time to save up/find that armor. Now, since I'm going to settle for a mithral medium(light) armor, what do you suggest I should pick instead of Battlecaster? I was going through the feats and Skill Focus Perform, Dragonsong (if it's on the server), and Ability Focus Bard Songs seem like good replacements. I feel like the Ability Focus would be the most beneficial one though.
Terri Lalani
Administrator of Phoenix Company
Administrator of Phoenix Company
-
Zahlfire
- Recognized Donor
- Posts: 38
- Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2017 2:01 pm
Re: What can be done to make this Bard build usable on BGTSC
Wow, this really blew up! Thanks for all the responses!
I have to say this community is just wonderful. Thanks for all the great responses and advice for this!
Thanks for the tips! I'm curious about the Blackguard build, I'm not against playing an Evil bard, but that late Curse sounds pretty annoying. I'd be leveling from two with whatever build I decide on, so the less difficult and boring the better. I've heard Curse is very useful to have, so not getting it until I'm nearly done leveling seems bad. I'm also a very slow leveler, example: I've been on this server for nearly two months and my "main" is only level seventeen.Sun Wukong wrote: http://nwn2db.com/build/?276698 <= Here is the blackguard version, this one gains the +10 AC with Divine Shield just as the above build does, then your charisma modifier as bonus to all your saves, and an aura that lowers enemy saves by -2. As a negative I could mention the very late Curse Song, but over all I would think this build is the best one you could go for.
Thanks for your tips as well! As stated above, I'm not against playing Evil, I've definitely worked out a fun backstory for an evil bard. The DDisciple seems interesting, but from what I could gather I didn't think it was actually activated on the server yet. As the only information for it is in a "NEXT UPDATE" thread, and we haven't had an update since then I believe. Lastly, that CHA bard build you linked looks really good and something I'm very interested in if I decide not to roll a Blackguard build. So thanks for that as well.chad878262 wrote:My advice (which is in agreement with Sun Wukong):
2. Evasion is powerful enough on it's own, but if you don't mind being evil Blackguard is a great choice. Between BG Aura, Jarring and Curse Song (plus Cloud of Bewilderment when needed) you can be a potent DC Caster and then (slowly) whittle away HP with Clap of Thunder. If you don't want to be evil than you lose the equivalent of +2 DC and you need all you can get with limited spells, but RP first and Rogue is not a bad choice. Another option for you might be Dragon Disciple, which for 10 levels with practiced caster is pretty decent for a Charisma Bard: viewtopic.php?f=496&t=61549&start=0 Pretty sure you might be able to go B5/DD10/SS10/DC5, thought I have not reviewed them all to try it yet. If not interested in Dragon Disciple or evil, I would probably take rogue for evasion too.
Here is another example I built a while back which just included B/SS/DC, no fourth class. Focused on getting high CHA and bard song focuses.
http://nwn2db.com/build/?227715
Sadly, summoning is not something I'd like to do on this character, but thank you anyways!Sun Wukong wrote:Another thing to consider is how Bards can be decent enough Summoners actually.
I have no idea how crafting works on this server at all. I actually thought it was disabled?Sun Wukong wrote:Actually, if you can fit in Craft Wand feat and decently high UMD skill, you could basically turn all the scrolls you find into magical wands to buff up your summon.
Not to mention that eventually you will get more or less all the equipment you could ever hope to have, and thus any loot you find can be turned into wands.
Thank you for the offer, I'll let you know as I'm not sure I'll need it yet.Darkcloud777 wrote: I have a set of mitral chain mail I will sell cheap. 10 bags sound fair to you?
I have to say this community is just wonderful. Thanks for all the great responses and advice for this!
-
Sun Wukong
- Posts: 2837
- Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2017 3:05 pm
Re: What can be done to make this Bard build usable on BGTSC
You could easily swap lingering song and curse song.
" I am no longer here, the elves of the Sword Coast are just far too horrible... "
- Elminster, probably.
-
Zahlfire
- Recognized Donor
- Posts: 38
- Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2017 2:01 pm
Re: What can be done to make this Bard build usable on BGTSC
Going through all the builds everyone has linked/made, I can't help but notice that no one takes Epic Inspiration. How come? That seems like a very powerful feat, unless I'm misunderstanding it. Per the description,
Does this mean all your inspirations have the effect of these two as well? or something else?Your art has reached new heights, you add +1 to all your bardic inspiration impact(s) and you may blend slowing and jarring inspiration into all the rest of your repertoire.