Comic: The Economic system and why Karond is so rich...

[chad878262]

As Karond stated the items are subject to change. That said weapon specialisation is on a few different weapons and items today. The list is posted so any concerns should absolutely be voiced to further the discussion. Just understand no new items list is finalized yet so as Karond stated this should really just be considered in regards to the power levels we are thinking about.

[mrieder79]

am I the only one concerned with putting class specifc feats like weapon specialization into items?

It's already there on the Kukri master, and the monk belt, i believe.

[maulofthetitans55]

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If value increase was the sole goal, then limiting gold...

Holy crap...you just admitted TheVoid and I are correct in our economic theory!



Still...Karond, you are awesome for building Epic NPC Merchants, but c'mon...what you are selling/trading is exponentially better Stuff, than your QC Approved NPC Merchant wares.

I've not denied that it will increase the value of gold, but where you and TheVoid are wrong is believing that it will solve the issues at hand.

To an extent, yes I do trade more powerful things quite often. The level has yet to be set. How much of a barter system do we want? Nullify it completely? Or just have the differences being somewhat negliable? While I do want a certain level introduced at a price that is quite a bit lower than the current market price, QC has been told by the DM staff to scale things slowly and all QC members who have voiced their opinion on the matter are of the same mind. We do not wish to shock the system en masse, as it changes things too fast and too sudden and gives little time to monitor the effect. Plus, in the past there has been plenty of mistakes when it comes to item balance due to a lack of mechanical knowledge from the staff, ignoring QC and/or QC not existing at the time (hello grandfathered items).

Arnbjorn is a step up from the normal merchants since with him +3 AC items were introduced to shops (with bonuses). The itemsets that are currently under review are slightly stronger than this, moving towards far more +4 EB weapons with bonuses, +4 AC armors with bonuses and generally item types that are less mechanically strong or are mostly useful to non-powerbuilds.

Not quite sure what holds the crafting system in place. It might need further testing, but stuff continuously gets added to it as well in excess (66 new material types, for example) and prolongs it. Ultimately, we can't push people to work on something voluntarily. I mean, there is some sense of duty involved, or should be, but the work needs to be done by developers, testers and the one implementing it. Maybe it can change now that Duster47 managed to get updating back.

Way to stay away from personal attacks and insults *slow clap* Some of us don't have the time to read 7 pages of a thread. I was just trying to get an idea of where you stood on the topic since you have been around awhile and arguably know the economic system of the server better than anyone; therefore, your opinion carries with it more weight than most others who play here.

Look Mendoza, it's fair that you don't want to read 7 pages. It's also fair that you aren't aware that I've worked more on itemsets than anyone else, in trying to bring a change forward, or spearheaded the discussion to get it going in that direction for the last 4 years (I've been the most active on crafting discussions and balancing as well in QC, although that investment is far off from what Rasael has done of course). There has been improvements, slowly, but its rapidly picking up speed now.

However, not even reading the first post of this thread? I did create this topic you know. I started this very discussion trying to bring in a change. I also do know of all the items we've in the module, and a lot about mechanical power in this game. So I also do hope that the opinion carries some weight, and it seems it is with how things are picking up now. I mean, most of the staff and QC are in agreement over this. That was impossible under previous DM constellations, and indeed, some QC constellations as well.

Btw, for reference, this is the itemset that I'm working on right now (Mrieder79 is working on another). It's far from the only intended itemset however, as we'll work to cover a wide amount of item types. The abilities and costs are subject to change before release:

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[th]Name[/th][th]Enchantments[/th][th]Cost[/th][tr][td]Backpack of Light Packing[/td][td]Cloak: +4 AC, 10% of weight, +4 tumble[/td][td]110.000[/td][/tr][tr][td]Belt of Three Blessings[/td][td]Belt: 3 level 3 cleric bonus slots[/td][td]80.000[/td][/tr][tr][td]Box of Shocks[/td][td]Miscellaneous item: Cast Call lightning (10) 5 uses per day[/td][td]72.000[/td][/tr][tr][td]Cap of Wizardry[/td][td]Helmet: lvl4 bonus slot wizard, +3 AC, +3 will saves, Spell Immunity: Feeblemind[/td][td]62.000[/td][/tr][tr][td]Cape of Agility[/td][td]Cloak: +3 DEX, +10 HP, +4 Parry, +4 Perform[/td][td]70.000[/td][/tr][tr][td]Club of Whacking[/td][td]Club: +4 EB, DC16 daze 50% 1 round, D4 sonic[/td][td]67.000[/td][/tr][tr][td]Crossbow of Impact[/td][td]Light Crossbow: +4 EB, +1 bludg damage, +2D8 massive criticals, improved critical: Light Crossbow[/td][td]88.000[/td][/tr][tr][td]Furnace Fires[/td][td]Miscellaneous item: Cast Flame Weapon (3)/1 charge, Cast Flame Weapon (10)/3 charges, 50 charges[/td][td]46.000[/td][/tr][tr][td]Girdle of Combat[/td][td]Belt: Bonus feat: Improved Critical Light Hammer, Weapon Focus Light Hammer, Weapon Specialization Light Hammer[/td][td]50.000[/td][/tr][tr][td]Glasses of Steel[/td][td]Helmet: +3 AC, +10 HP, 10% Electrical Immunity[/td][td]26.000[/td][/tr][tr][td]Gnomish Repelling Armor[/td][td]Breastplate: +4 AC, Bonus Feat: Dodge, 3/- damage reduction, 28 Spell Resistance[/td][td]234.000[/td][/tr] [table][th]Name[/th][th]Enchantments[/th][th]Cost[/th][tr][td]Gondian Dragon[/td][td]Light Hammer: +4 EB, D4 fire damage, Cast Dragon Fire Breast once per day, Visual: Fire[/td][td]87.000[/td][/tr][tr][td]Gond's Favor[/td][td]Light Hammer: +4 EB, +1 divine damage, Cast Hammer of the Gods (12) 2 times per day, Bonus feat: Dodge[/td][td]172.000[/td][/tr][tr][td]Googles of Sight[/td][td]Helmet: Bonus feat: Darkvision, Cast See invisibility (3) 5 times per day, Spot +4, Search +4, Open Lock +4, Craft Alchemy +4, Concentration +4, UMD +4[/td][td]200.000[/td][/tr][tr][td]Hammer of Timelocking[/td][td]Light Hammer: +4 EB, +1 magical damage, DC16 Slow 50%/1 round, Spell Immunity: Slow[/td][td]93.000[/td][/tr][tr][td]Hat of the Prankster[/td][td]Helmet: Bonus Feat Arcane Defense Illusion, Spell Focus Illusion, +4 Bluff, +4 Sleight of Hand[/td][td]50.000[/td][/tr][tr][td]Incorporeal Hammer[/td][td]Light Hammer: +4 EB, DC16 Lesser Dispelling on hit, D8 damage vs Incoporeal, Bonus Feat: Ghost Warrior[/td][td]132.000[/td][/tr][tr][td]Lantanese Acidspitter[/td][td]Light Crossbow: +4 EB, D4 acid damage, Acid Resistance 10/-, Cast Acid Bomb 2 times/day[/td][td]76.000[/td][/tr][tr][td]Lantanese Firespitter[/td][td]Light Crossbow: +4 EB, D4 fire damage, Fire Resistance 10/-, Cast Fire Bomb 2 times/day[/td][td]89.000[/td][/tr][/table]
[th]Name[/th][th]Enchantments[/th][th]Cost[/th][tr][td]Miracle Worker[/td][td]Light Hammer: +4 Craft Weapon, +4 Craft Armor, +4 Craft Trap, Cast Magic Vestment (13) once per day, Cast Greater Magic Weapon (15) once per day[/td][td]128.000[/td][/tr][tr][td]Myroc's Masterwork Mace[/td][td]Mace: +4 EB, +1 magical damage, +4 Will save, +2D6 Massive Criticals[/td][td]106.000[/td][/tr][tr][td]Pocket Dragon[/td][td]Miscellaneous Item: Cast Greater Fireburst once per day[/td][td]42.000[/td][/tr][tr][td]Poot's Great Fizzlebang[/td][td]Light Hammer: +4 EB, D4 electrical damage, 20% Electrical immunity, Keen, Visual: Electrical[/td][td]145.000[/td][/tr][tr][td]Pouch of Poshness[/td][td]Belt: +3 AC, +3 Appraise, Bonus Spell Slot bard level 2&3[/td][td]60.000[/td][/tr][tr][td]Sharpest Tool in the Shed[/td][td]Handaxe: +4 EB, Keen, Massive Critical D10, On hit DC16 Wounding[/td][td]135.000[/td][/tr][tr][td]Solver Prototype[/td][td]Miscellaneous Item: Cast Knock (3) 2 times/day, Cast Light (5) 2 times/day[/td][td]9000[/td][/tr][tr][td]The Big Thunderer[/td][td]Morningstar: +4 EB, D4 electrical damage, +1 sonic damage, Cast Call Lightning (5) 5 uses/day, Lightning Bolt (10) 4 uses/day, Chain Lightning (20) 2 uses/day, Visual: Electrical[/td][td]488.000[/td][/tr][tr][td]The Thunderer[/td][td]Light Hammer: +4 EB, +1 Electrical, +1 Sonic damage, Cast Arc Lightning (7) 5 uses/day, Cast Chain Lightning (20) once/day, Visual: Electrical[/td][td]216.000[/td][/tr][tr][td]The Blazing Cloak of Flames[/td][td]Cloak: 30% fire immunity, Fire resistance 5/-, +3 saves vs fire, -3 saves vs cold, Cast Endure Elements (2) 3 uses/day[/td][td]100.000[/td][/tr][tr][td]The Blue Cloak[/td][td]Cloak: Bonus Spell Slot Level 4 for Wizard, Druid, Cleric, Paladin and Ranger, Bonus Feat: Combat Casting[/td][td]60.000[/td][/tr][tr][td]The Cleverest Cleaving Cleaver[/td][td]Handaxe: +4 EB, Bonus Feat: Cleave, D4 Bludgeoning damage, +3 Intelligence[/td][td]155.000[/td][/tr][tr][td]The work of Urdlen[/td][td]Mace: +4 EB, DC16 poison D2 STR damage on hit, D4 acid damage, +2 saves vs poison[/td][td]112.000[/td][/tr][tr][td]Thinking Glasses[/td][td]Helmet: +2 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom, +4 Diplomacy, +4 Intimidate, +4 Bluff, +4 Taunt, +4 Sense Motive[/td][td]46.000[/td][/tr][tr][td]Vretix's Secret[/td][td]Cloak: Cast Ghostly Visage (15) once/day, Bonus feat: Mobility, +3 Strength[/td][td]70.000[/td][/tr]

Your own merchants don't even begin to fix the problem at hand. Arbjorn is the best merchant on the server without a doubt but that doesn't change the fact I've never purchased a single item from him. Your new proposed merchant is only slightly better but ultimately won't change the zero value of gold. The valued items on bgtscc are long swords, warhammers, scimitars, mithral full plate, epic stealth gear, +4 dodge with +3 stats, high vamp, etc. Your vendors address almost none of that need. You think you would sell your Wicked Union for gold because someone can buy a comparable Light Hammer or Mace? Come now.

Controlled enchanting with high gold costs is the only way to address this problem unless you guys really want to add a merchant for every item the loot generator can possibly make. This is not a problem a bandaid can fix. 90% of the best items on the server are controlled by the same ten or so players, as Karond well knows. It's going to take a ton of effort to fix a problem grown out of control over the better part of a decade.

[Karond]

You think you would sell your Wicked Union for gold because someone can buy a comparable Light Hammer or Mace? Come now.

No, if you think a single merchant will solve all the problems then you've misunderstood completely. The staff has told us to scale slowly, but that doesn't mean certain items are exempt in the future. There should, in my opinion, eventually be a mithral fullplate and other items of comparable mechanical power in shops, as well as all kinds of weapons and armor.

Where are the scimitars?

Scimitars are cavalry weapons. If you're looking for popular weapons, what about halberds, spears, battleaxes, warhammers, shortswords and daggers? For this itemset, I read through this list, and focused accordingly where it made sense (Didn't see it reasonable for a small gnome to carry a wide assortment of warmaces or any large weapons). But eventually all kinds of weapons and armor should be covered. If people are frustrated at the slow pace, they're free to lend a hand.

[Considerate_]

I like the idea that all items available to the playerbase (whether as drops or DM rewards) are in shops for purchase. It seems to give a fair and reasonable access to all.

I think all of the epic items should be made untradeable. The same should go for DM rewards. That means once you decide you want to try out a new character, you can't just trade over all your items to the new one. It also makes RCRing an epic character more costly. You won't just lose your character, you'll also lose some of their gear.

The only gear that shouldn't be bound to the character who picks it up, is the random loot generator in my opinion. That way trade is still possible, and such items gets an added little value.


That's my thoughts on it thus far anyway, they're subject to change if I read any good arguments - but I have been advocating this years ago as well! I don't think it will solve every problem, but I think it would be better than what we have now!

[mrm3ntalist]

isn't oocly muling gold and items across PCs a form of metagaming?

why not create persistent ig storage instead?

Yes it is. So?
The Srcy is a form of metagaming, so is knowing the times that your friends login, so are other things that are allowed on this server because they allow for better gameplay, compared to a lesser form of metagaming.

Personally, if the choice was a persistent storage, or use the resources and dev time for other features, I will always go with the latter.

If value increase was the sole goal, then limiting gold...

Holy crap...you just admitted TheVoid and I are correct in our economic theory!



Still...Karond, you are awesome for building Epic NPC Merchants, but c'mon...what you are selling/trading is exponentially better Stuff, than your QC Approved NPC Merchant wares. That just shows that grinding/looting + persistence is far more productive than saving up Coin to buy from your NPC Merchant. The RIG is Great...unless your Horde is actually from DMs granting custom gear.

Enchanting has the capability to satisfy any Build or Player need, and though your NPC Merchants give awesome Lore-based items, that really isn't what Players want. They want flexibility, and customization.

And that Ras coded a system already...what really is stopping that from getting in game, except the Will?

But getting back on topic.... I think Steve summarized the argument for an Enchanter quite nicely:

Enchanting has the capability to satisfy any Build or Player need, and though your NPC Merchants give awesome Lore-based items, that really isn't what Players want. They want flexibility, and customization.

Steve, you have been a very active and demanding HDM, especially regarding QC and developing issues. How close to implementation did you bring crafting enchanting? How easy was to come up with a theory to fix the economy? How easy was to implement it? * rhetorical *

Karonds vendors and his general idea has a lot of merit. With the current system, the gold that a player has to spend on merchants to equip his character is what, 50-100k? After that point the gold begins to lose value. And we all know what items you buy.... no where close to epic.

Here come Karonds vendors, where while they wont solve the servers economy problem, they provide a good starting point for us to build on. The players can actually spent millions on Vendors so the curve where the gold begins to lose value is 10+ times bigger thus maintaining golds value longer. If you continue building on this ( crafting, gold sinks etc ), then you have a much more functional economy. And the important part is that it can happen right here, right now.

In summary, with Karonds and other merchants we will get.
- More fair access to better equipment for everyone ( see the comment on the bottom for this )
- An increase in golds values and a first step to build on.
- easy to implement

I don't see any negatives...

Fr last I left these two important comments:

am I the only one concerned with putting class specifc feats like weapon specialization into items?

We all are. So?
Adding feats on items can be problematic, but it is always better to look at each case separately. If we were to add a Steadfast determination or impr. knockdown on an item that would be OP for obvious reasons.
Weapon specialization just adds +2damage ( and another two if you are using the same weapon type on the other hand ) with no other mechanical advantage. It is also not useful for characters such us Fighter/WMs and FSs.
So for that feat, there is no problem. It is important, when you are concerned with something to say why.

I would much rather have the entire loot table, along with all the epic items, available in the shops than open the can of worms that is the crafting system.

I would too. It is not the "safe" way to do it though, at least concerning QC. It is better to include less used types of weapons and not extremely powerful, monitor their impact and then add more. It is generally better to put something in and increase it than put a lot in and have to take them back.

The good thing is that the autoupdater issues are resolved ( Thank you Duster!!! ), s things will begin t be implemented. Its only going to get better from now on

[duracele]

The reason people want stronger gear isn`t that we need it because almost any build can solo the areas in his level range. Most epic characters can solo all but one or two areas. So it`s down to i want to have it because someone else got it imo. Which is kind of understandable. Probably there were good reasons for taking gf items of the loot table but i would suggest giving those another look and reimplement them. As it is now it is really a separate system where gf gear only gets traded between the ten players that already have those.
As for new traders. Yes but i wouldn`t like to have +4gear available with merchants. It would take the thrill of finding this kind of loot in chests. Rather i would like to see more consumables. AFAIK there is only one shop selling potions of greater heroism (in the ud). If you want money to be more valuable i suggest introducing more and more powerful consumables.
I feel i need to point it out again though that money has his place even in big trades. If you can offer several millions i am pretty sure someone will be willing to part with an epic item. You just have to invest A LOT OF time. Just like finding epics in the first place. If you keep looking you will find. If you have only 3 hrs a week for the game, well you probably won`t find epic items and not get to millions of gold.
Crafting should remain with DM`s to aprove imo. There was an enchanter at Darkhold not long ago. DM`s can give players who have no epic gear the chance to upgrade slightly not for already great gear to become uber.
Off toppic: Give us some harder epic areas. Where the regular spawns can only be beaten by a group. Give us a loot chest/item storage (Diablo 2, i know i know...).

[thids]

Where are the scimitars?

Scimitars are cavalry weapons. If you're looking for popular weapons, what about halberds, spears, battleaxes, warhammers, shortswords and daggers? For this itemset, I read through this list, and focused accordingly where it made sense (Didn't see it reasonable for a small gnome to carry a wide assortment of warmaces or any large weapons). But eventually all kinds of weapons and armor should be covered. If people are frustrated at the slow pace, they're free to lend a hand.

Just to make it clear Karond, I wasn't complaining about your new merchants, I was complaining about how the server's merchants are setup in general so far. Someone in the past obviously had a silly idea that keeping the "popular" weapons away from the shops would discourage powerbuilding. Which is just outright ridiculous. I know what your goal with adding new merchants is, and I agree with it.


Scimitars are one of the more popular weapons on the Sword Coast, and in fact along the entire western side of Faerun most likely. Their usage in FR is not tied to cavalry as the scimitar covers a wide variety of RL weapons that are grouped under the same mechanical name. I know people frown upon the scimitar because it's the "powerbuilder's dream" weapon, but that's no reason to treat them as basically exotic weapons when they are not.


There are more than plenty of moderately powerful daggers available, which is why I didn't mention them. I know of one Halberd in the shops maybe? I'm not sure, I didn't mention them as they seem more of a guard type of weapon than one used by the adventuring types. I mentioned Battleaxes and I forgot about Warhammers. There are a few quite powerful shortswords that were added to the corm orp merchant.


You can't tell me Beautiful Blade, Old Knight's Blade (which are the best purchasable long swords as far as I'm aware) and the pirate captains scimitar are even close to being moderately powerful. Every time I make a character with a long sword or a scimitar, I am prepared to just stick to the regular +4 versions or even +3, because I can't count on luck or trade to acquire something better. So far we have basically been punished if we wanted our characters to wield a sword. In a fantasy RPG.

I would much rather have the entire loot table, along with all the epic items, available in the shops than open the can of worms that is the crafting system.

I would too. It is not the "safe" way to do it though, at least concerning QC. It is better to include less used types of weapons and not extremely powerful, monitor their impact and then add more. It is generally better to put something in and increase it than put a lot in and have to take them back.

The good thing is that the autoupdater issues are resolved ( Thank you Duster!!! ), s things will begin t be implemented. Its only going to get better from now on

But see, this is what I don't understand. There are items already in the loot table, which means they are already in circulation and in use by various characters. What is there left to monitor in regards to those items? If those items are too strong, they are too strong regardless if they are in the shops or not. And if the philosophy that everything should be available in shops eventually is the new direction for the server, in regards to shops, then how is it fair that something that is deemed too strong by the QC and the staff is readily available to whomever is lucky enough to bash the right chest at the right time? Are we in for a purge of the loot table and another round of grandfathered items? I'm genuinely asking, because from what I've noticed there has been a trend of nerfing certain properties on items (like steadily moving away from 1d6 elemental damage on weapons towards 1d4 as the standard).

[Aspect of Sorrow]

Personally, if the choice was a persistent storage, or use the resources and dev time for other features, I will always go with the latter.

We had persistent storage up and going in about two hours at SoD. When I implemented object templating it reduced the amount of disk usage significantly by moving the objects out of the player BIC and referenced instead a single time, (Health kit x 20u x ~60pc vs 1), reduced reconnections (which fired onjoin scripts that adjusted depreciated inventories), and a fast to edit property for mass adjustment of item properties due to the single template fix. Though we gained all of those perks, player muling still happened on occasion; behavior of a bad habit seems to not fall away so easily.

[Steve]

I've not denied that it will increase the value of gold, but where you and TheVoid are wrong is believing that it will solve the issues at hand.

Don't backpeddle mate...it's okay to let someone else be right sometimes!

But seriously, what issues are we trying to solve, exactly? The one where you are beyond wealthy, as a Player, and even you have nothing to spend you money on (a simplistic take on it, but more correct than not!).

I think the big issue is that you, Karond, have more Stuff than other Players will ever have. They can only get some of your Stuff if they either a) have their own Epic Stuff, or b) you take their coin...which, you have said you simply do to be "nice," which is exemplary behavior (watch to see how brown Steve's nose can get...or not. )

And actually, personally, it isn't just that Epic Gear isn't available to any—unless you are a LOOTZ GRINDZ monkey, or, your BFF quits and dumps their Loot Monkey horde onto you as a parting gift—it is even at lower levels, finding an item that is SUITED to your Character, such that it is MEANINGFUL and not just a "temporary" thing until you have Looted and Grinded more and found the next highest version.

THAT is where an Enchanting System wins over any current NPC Merchant, and any future Epic NPC Merchant that Karond or Matt can develop.

Unfortunately, I can chant ENCHANTING! ENCHANTING! ENCHANTING! all I want, but until someone on QC or Rasael himself actually says WHY it is not being looked into or brought into game, even in a very, very, very minor form so it can have its Bugs worked out by actual IG use....I'm just blowing hot wind out of the wrong hole.

Arbjorn is the best merchant on the server without a doubt but that doesn't change the fact I've never purchased a single item from him.

This. I have looked at Ambjorn's list about 100 times, with 3 different Toons, and I could never see any item on that list actually being worth the Gold Coin I would spend. Why? Because I know I should save my Gold Coin and wait until something comes to the Consignment NPC, or the Forum Auction House. RIG produced items are always better, and DM reward items are better still—meaning, the DM Loot Inventory is waaaaaaay better than many realize.

If what the DMs have to grant PCs is made available via merchant, then...that is not a bad idea. There, you have the possibility to even out what is available in total, in regard to items, all except the Grandfathered Stuff...though that is slowly being taken away from Players, as time goes on.

So, if the DM Loot Inventory was put to Merchant, any Player, new or old, has 2 choices: make the Gold Coin to get the best stuff, RP in order to get the best stuff, or both.

Maybe, just maybe...if I was a new Player on BGTSCC, I would see Ambjorn and his Items and actually find one that suits. However, it took me 1 year of playing before I managed to find and sell off a Mithral Full Plate, which gave me 600,000 coin...and before that, my largest coin amount was probably 40,000. It was rough...let me tell you. And that was also in the era where DMs were handing out goodies to their Clique like paper hats at a Birthday Party.

Steve, you have been a very active and demanding HDM, especially regarding QC and developing issues. How close to implementation did you bring crafting enchanting? How easy was to come up with a theory to fix the economy? How easy was to implement it? * rhetorical *

Never ask me a rhetorical question! It's like super bait...!

I am going to give you an answer, though I hate to do it. The reason why Enchanting, Expose Weakness feat, new Areas by tfunke, PrC updates or additions, Persistent Storage, and Bug Fixes like the Dispel Bug Fix have never been added to the Server—to date—is because of Luna.

I could go on, in excruciating detail, but that was the past, and there seems to be an actual, new Future to BG—if Duster47 can make it happen. So many things sat at the doorway to completion and implementation, but if 1 person can simply squash any idea or issue because they themselves do not believe in it or do not have the Will to support it...then...you have our recent past on BGTSCC.

Here come Karonds vendors, where while they wont solve the servers economy problem, they provide a good starting point for us to build on. The players can actually spent millions on Vendors so the curve where the gold begins to lose value is 10+ times bigger thus maintaining golds value longer. If you continue building on this ( crafting, gold sinks etc ), then you have a much more functional economy. And the important part is that it can happen right here, right now.

You forget, that—as Karond has reminded us—this still takes A LOT of work and time for review, where really, getting to customizable gear via Enchanting and maybe after Crafting, is what is actually needed.

How long does this Server have, anyway? How many items have you personally bought for your Toons from Ambjorn?

Look mate, I am not trying to rain on your parade, or Karonds, or the Server...what I am trying to say, and what I used to promote when I was HDM and spending much time on supporting QC and the Devs, is that if one is going to do the work, make sure you are putting the time to actually see it manifest, and make sure it is a project that Players actually want to see, or if is a project that reflects in-character role-play, and is a direct order from the DM Team.

Everything else just gets bogged down in subjective bickering and frustration. Even Karond's Ambjorn suffered from that, no matter how "great" it is to have on the Server, atm.

[mrm3ntalist]

But see, this is what I don't understand. There are items already in the loot table, which means they are already in circulation and in use by various characters. What is there left to monitor in regards to those items? If those items are too strong, they are too strong regardless if they are in the shops or not. And if the philosophy that everything should be available in shops eventually is the new direction for the server, in regards to shops, then how is it fair that something that is deemed too strong by the QC and the staff is readily available to whomever is lucky enough to bash the right chest at the right time? Are we in for a purge of the loot table and another round of grandfathered items? I'm genuinely asking, because from what I've noticed there has been a trend of nerfing certain properties on items (like steadily moving away from 1d6 elemental damage on weapons towards 1d4 as the standard).

Yes we know what items are in the loot table. The funny thing is that players like Karond, who proposed these vendors, is the one who will benefit the least, since he has no need for them. Yet he put all his effort and work and personal time for this.

I think that you dont object to such shops. My opinion is that more commonly used weapons (Scimitars etc ) should be available from vendors. However, it is not my desicion, or any other single persons desicion. It is a group desicion and has been decided to be safe about it. So the only thing i can say is patience, since i believe this will work and eventually all items will be equally represented.

You do make a fair point about how limited availability there is, even for decent versions of scimitars and other popular weapons

Personally, if the choice was a persistent storage, or use the resources and dev time for other features, I will always go with the latter.

We had persistent storage up and going in about two hours at SoD. When I implemented object templating it reduced the amount of disk usage significantly by moving the objects out of the player BIC and referenced instead a single time, (Health kit x 20u x ~60pc vs 1), reduced reconnections (which fired onjoin scripts that adjusted depreciated inventories), and a fast to edit property for mass adjustment of item properties due to the single template fix. Though we gained all of those perks, player muling still happened on occasion; behavior of a bad habit seems to not fall away so easily.

As Golem said, muling cannot be monitored, not without having 24hour dm presence and monitoring countless lines of logs. However, if you have a persistent storage system available we would be more than happy to take a look at it.

[Aspect of Sorrow]

The reason why Enchanting, Expose Weakness feat, new Areas by tfunke, PrC updates or additions, Persistent Storage, and Bug Fixes like the Dispel Bug Fix have never been added to the Server—to date—is because of Luna. I could go on, in excruciating detail, but that was the past, and there seems to be an actual, new Future to BG—if Duster47 can make it happen. So many things sat at the doorway to completion and implementation, but if 1 person can simply squash any idea or issue because they themselves do not believe in it or do not have the Will to support it...then...you have our recent past on BGTSCC.

There's only one module maintainer at present?

As Golem said, muling cannot be monitored, not without having 24hour dm presence and monitoring countless lines of logs. However, if you have a persistent storage system available we would be more than happy to take a look at it.

I'll dig it up.

You know what would be cool? Imagine instead of static vendors you had small bits of loot table stuff available in vendors, changing every reset, and not in unlimited amounts. Idk if it's doable.

With a little bit of tweaking, yup.

[Karond]

(like steadily moving away from 1d6 elemental damage on weapons towards 1d4 as the standard).

Alright, I hear what you're saying. The goal is to get epic varieties of all weapons and armor into shops. This includes loot table items, but as with new merchants, it's going to get scaled. Not all loot table items are necessary either, as long as the shop items are good enough to be valid substitutes to the loot table items of the same type. I can agree that there isn't a big enough selection currently and that's exactly what I would wish to address, and QC and the staff as well it seems. It's on its way!

The above quote is something I personally like. Less VFX, and moving towards a standardization. I've offered to to help define those standards with QC back when Novus was HDM, but got a no since the DMs would take care of it I was told, but nothing came of that so...

That said, standardization is a vital tool for balance to ensure that all items fall within a pre-defined norm, and that items that violate this (due to past DMs lacking mechanical knowledge) are nerfed to conform with this. It's definitely unfair to allow DM rewards to circulate with D8 negative damage and D6 acid damage on the same weapon, when most people can't even find a D4 weapon and the current DMs refuse to give out D8+D6 equipment. Not everyone agree with that though, but it's my personal stance.

The standards for items that I've been promoting in QC is the following:

• +4 EB on weapons and +4 AC on armors liberally applied, as anything else helps GMW/vestment/mage armor classes more than the rest, and it's the non-spellcasting classes that need to catch up in general. Naturally some armors of mithral material won't get much, if any bonus.
• +D4 on all weapons. Exceptions are large weapons and those with a base damage higher than D8 (katana, waraxe, bastard sword), getting D6 or D4+1. Less damage overall if it's an unresistable type.
• Massive criticals generally bigger on large weapons as well, since size matter.
• Care taken with materials. Alchemical Silver and Cold Iron should count as bonuses to a weapon, and in some cases even +bludgeoning damage is a DR bypassing bonus. Adamantine is of course ruled out entirely for weapons.
• D8 max bonus damage vs specific on all weapons, provided it's limited. Like, vs good, vs plant, vs constructs etc., and not vs evil. Rarely exceptions.
• On hit properties limited, and often substitute all or part of the bonus damage on a weapon. So, a DC16 daze 50%/3 rounds weapon gets less bonus damage applied usually (exceptions apply to merchanically inferior weapons, like sickles).
• Spells per day generally being offensive (with DCs), and buffs charges per day. People mostly want buffs since it mimics being a spellcaster, but the advantage of spells should generally belong with spellcasters. So no on adding all the good buffing spells as uses/day.
• +3 ability maximum, bonuses possible. Can be paired with +2 to another ability for particularly epic items, but not two +3 abilities on the same item.
• +10 HP generally as maximum, with very rare exceptions for more on otherwise clearly inferor items. Never above +20 though, as then it approaches the power of an epic feat.
• 5-10 DR vs elements, less on physical DR. 10-20% partial immunity, with up to 30% being rare exceptions. No full immunities, and spell immunities only applied to certain spells (low to mid level, always DC focused ones and typically spells that aren't very useful. It's mostly to drive up prices on items or to help a theme along)
• Level 7 slots maximum, but care needs to put here. Level 7 is the highest in the randomized system, but for the loot table the highest is 6 and most commonly 1-4. Some slots can generally be applied together on the same item, or in multiples, since they're seemingly less powerful. So, single high level slot, or several lesser ones. Arcane slots tend to be more powerful than divine ones of the same level. One can be especially lenient towards a class like the Spirit Shaman.
• +4 to skills maximum. Yes, there are a few items that break that but for the most part those are exceptions and doesn't have that big of an impact (like the gloves of swordplay, but grandfathered stealth gear is of course different). They're tolerable.
• Generally bridging the gap within reason when it comes to armor and weapons. That is to say, since hide armors are worse than most other armors, it's alright to give them slightly better enchantments to help promote them (with care, as druids are a concern). The same is true for weapons, generally giving weapons like warmaces, sickles and such slightly better enchantments than for example waraxes or scimitars. They typically won't get more bonus damage, but could get more enchantments, unresistable damage types, full bonus damage and on hit properties etc etc.

Well, that's how I reason when it comes to a general framework at least.

[Mendoza]

As a number of people have stated: new merchants will NOT fix the problem. The only solution proposed that will effectively fix the currently broken system is somehow allowing players access to all items in the loot list (which some have pointed out as extremely difficult to pull off) or implementing an enchanter NPC.

While new merchants are nice, I think most would rather see those resources allocated towards a solution that would actually fix the problem.

[Ithilan]

I understand the perspective that people want good items available to them and in particular ones that catter specificly to their characters specializations. But a lot of what im reading in this topic, is complaints that people can not find the "ideal" gear for X character with relative ease.

While I support a higher availability for all kinds of items and builds, I dont at all agree with the stance that the best items on the server should be available to all. I think the whole concept of achieving something would be redundant if you just grind gold to go and make your +4 EB, d4 elemental damage +3 Vamp weapon.

To me a huge motivation in any game is that sense of aspiring towards perfection, but essential being imperfect. One of the most enjoyable gaming experiences of my life was grinding away for level 99 in Diablo2, why? Because it felt like you achieved something extraordinaire.

There are debates circulating about all aspects of the game and server, from quests to items and the general tone is that things should be tailor made for their specific desires and needs. Something im hugely opposed to, dont make leveling easier, dont give people access to all the gear or you will remove the sense of progress that is essential to a RPG.

Yes increase availability of moderately to useful items, indeed. But dont make it possible for people to sit around a fire, spam a copy pasted novel they read while hitting level 30 and enchanting said sword, that would negate the whole adventure aspect.

What I really like about Karond's shop is the speciality goods that bring some less used item types into availability for people that are struggling to even remotely get anything useful. How many of you chest runners find +4 halberds for example? Sure its a "guard" item or whatever you classified it as Thids, but that doesnt make it a lower priority than say a longsword, just because one is more popular or essentially better.

Looking over Karond's latest list of goods, I only noticed one item thats attractive to my current type of character, but the essence of it is that it has a lot of useful items for other type of characters and it is true to a concept of Gnomish invention like the Northern Goods vendor is also essential a "concept vendor".

This is something I really really like and eventually I suppose there would be an ocean of vendors with a variety of quality goods, so that every character concept and build on the server could go and find a valueable item in a store. But giving them access to a perfect inventory via vendors is not something I think will help, quite the contrary it will have a negative impact on trade between players, while making gold a currency that is attractive of course, but at these prices not at all, it is way to cheap compared to the amount of gold you can make from just vendoring junk. It will still be mere coppers to buy any of these items.

A possible enchanter could change that yes, but im largely opposed to making dream items available, no matter the amount of gold. I do like to increase the item power level, so that things are more balanced between spellcasters and non-buff classes. But I fear what easier availability will result in.

I dont care what lectures people can present about RP being the main motivation and what not, this is a game that mechanically revolves around progressing as a character, that means both experience and loot. If you suddenly make a whole aspect of that redundant and catter only to role players, you will notice a decrease in player population eventually I belive. No game has ever become better by lowering the difficulty, quite the contrary and that applies to all aspects of the game, economy, loot, experience etc. etc.