Comic: The Economic system and why Karond is so rich...

[Ithilan]

Nice comic, great read you greedy little bearded collector

I used to play NWN1 on a Silver Marches setting where all dieties had a church or shrine with an available vendor that would sell appropriate items for that specific faith. Each of these NPCs were only eligible for interaction with someone of appropriate diety, which I have no clue how they scripted, but the point was to provide access to a "weapon of faith" of high quality for all players and the result was really good.

These werent godlike items, but they were in scale and balance with the server item power level and would for most people be irreplaceable outside of delicious DM tokened items.

I feel like Karond is expressing here, a lot more vendor availabbility would balance out a lot of the current issues, which would result in less grinding and more fun time spend on faction intrigues and RP in general. It would also put a dampener on the far to often experienced non interaction encounters you have with people chest running greedily past you.

That said, ive been addicted to loot for so many years I lost count and that thrill of busting open a chest in any game and finding something rare, well I dont think that would ever lose its value either. But more shops with more interesting items would definately be great, the Northern goods vendor in Baldur's Gate is one of many great additions since last I played here, id love to see more of his kind.

[Storm Munin]

As much as Karond is right, the idea that cash is worthless is flawed.

Right now anyone can easily collect 200k gold a month just selling looted stuff back to vendors. Take you 10-20 hrs though.
However:

You just have to realize gold is what to be used for consumables, paying off other toons, guild stuff and if you are into multiple toons the lv7 speed bump equipment (100k per toon or so).

Granted, consumables at least would be in a vastly lesser demand should the loot running trickle down.
Longer, more ardous events cannot counter that as is when it come to burning consumables.


Have to give it to you Karond, pretty nice setup to sponsor us all and get your toon rich doing it.
Thank you.


We need crafting with the associated roleplay, not more shops of stale items.

YMMV

[maulofthetitans55]

Ummm it is worthless though. Have you tried buying a high end item lately? You could have Karond's 40 million gold and still have nothing but +3 auctioneer gear because no one cares about your gold. Gold is supposed to be a medium for trade and on this server it is anything but. Sure you can buy Heal potions until you're blue in the face but those are easily acquired by everyone. It's all about the epics.

Also liked the bit about one DM event giving +6 epic stealth gear in an hour and another giving a small amount of gold. A very accurate depiction of DM events here. Many of you would leave bgtscc and never look back if you saw some of the ridiculous DM items veterans have that put weapons worth 5 million to shame. Weapons gained not through stellar RP but by being an ex DM/area builder or just being in the right place in the right guild at the right time with the right DM. Meanwhile you nerf the loot tables so that kingpin's like Karond dominate the server even more by having control of everything good. It's almost like the staff are trying to turn away new players. It's stupid.

[mrieder79]

I laughed my a** off after reading that comic. You deserve to be rich, Karond.

I agree that there need to be more shops with epic items. They should be expensive. Millions, maybe, for the good ones. Make it a challenge, but one that can be accomplished with time. This would be good for the server and would eliminate the hopeless feeling that one will never own a truly epic weapon or item.

Until then, I'm gonna see how much cash I can bum off of Karond... since it's not worth anything, he shouldn't mind spotting me a few dozen mil. Right?

great post.

[mrm3ntalist]

There are many things that can and should be done in order to have a better economy. Shops or crafting alone wont make much difference. Everything together can help though. One thing that can happen right now, is for players actions to have gold costs accordingly. This has been mentioned before. For example, if you want wards for the guild area to block teleports, have the players RP casting a spell to block teleport and charge them for it. This spells can be renewable. Another example is when guilds move to another place to take part in a war. That should cost gold.

Imagine having epic shops and crafting and appropriate costs like what was described before. I think it will not only help with the economy, but in case of guild wards and other costs, it would help promote guild RP.

Finally is not true that gold worths nothing. Just this week, i bought a longsword +3, 1d4 piercing, a longsword +3, 1d4acid, 2xdragonbreat, a greatsword +3, 1d8gold, 1d4 magical vs giants and a ring ( dodge, lightning reflexes, improved initiative and 10%cold immunity ). It is not like that every week but it happens.

[Ithilan]

Also liked the bit about one DM event giving +6 epic stealth gear in an hour and another giving a small amount of gold. A very accurate depiction of DM events here. Many of you would leave bgtscc and never look back if you saw some of the ridiculous DM items veterans have that put weapons worth 5 million to shame. Weapons gained not through stellar RP but by being an ex DM/area builder or just being in the right place in the right guild at the right time with the right DM. Meanwhile you nerf the loot tables so that kingpin's like Karond dominate the server even more by having control of everything good. It's almost like the staff are trying to turn away new players. It's stupid.

Althought this is true, it has been a reality for NWN servers since the dawn of the first game and it does not matter if the format is items, DM tokens or what not, there will be this factor. Always have been, always will be.

I think it would help a lot to increase the general access to quality items, either through shops or increased loot tables. Personally I preffer the shops since I think adventuring should be about that, adventure and not some routine chest running that disencourages party play largely.

I dont really care who sits on a big pile of gold or epic items, its an aspect in any online game that people can play the "auction house" and doesnt necesarilly impact on the key element for me which is the social interactions and RP. If the issue is favorism and event hugging for specific factions and players, I think its the DMs job to review their general approach and who their specific events is available to or catters to, but I havent been in an event since DM Vindicator was about, so I cant say at all.

[Karond]

As much as Karond is right, the idea that cash is worthless is flawed.

What you say above is true, however, that has little to do with a limited supply of gold, and an economy that requires it. If gold coin was just a limited as Karond's inventory, and gold coin was the ONLY thing you could use to buy Heal potions, scrolls, ales, etc....what then?

Comparing rare, limited things to common, unlimited things, is comparing, as is said, apples to oranges. That, however, does not a label of flawed theory, make.

It's good that I don't say that gold is worthless then. It's just of low value. However, a limited gold amount is unfeasable, and even if it was possible, it wouldn't work. You either set the gold bar too high, at which point it won't have much of an effect, or you set it too low, and people gravitate into classes that doesn't need consumables (does that sound familiar with people that can't afford UMD today? It should). Plus, it's only consumables. Limited gold will increase the value of gold, sure, but it won't make it into a medium for trades and that's the problem.

Shops or crafting alone wont make much difference. Everything together can help though. One thing that can happen right now, is for players actions to have gold costs accordingly.

That's too idealistic. Ever heard of the prisoner's dilemma? That's what you propose. But since you can't convince everyone to sell all their things for gold, the first ones that do will just lose out. You're free to try it out, of course, I can buy your stuff for gold if you want.

I've even tried that approach in different ways than the auction topic. I have on occassion sold quality items for rather low amounts of gold, erronously thinking that the buyer is fully aware that I'm doing them a favor and that they would return it when needed in the future. Nothing could be more wrong (even when it's said I'm doing them a favor, its not returned). What happens is that the buyer thinks they tricked me, and then forgets all about it. I still operate on favors here and there, but in regards to item trades.

Crafting helps because it represents hundreds of new items in a compact package. But shops can do it on their own, and even with crafting shops are needed to make gold the medium of trade (since crafting doesn't cover loot table items nor equitable items to them). That's the goal; making gold a medium of trade.

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Thanks for the kind comments, glad you liked the comic

[mrm3ntalist]

Shops or crafting alone wont make much difference. Everything together can help though. One thing that can happen right now, is for players actions to have gold costs accordingly.

That's too idealistic. Ever heard of the prisoner's dilemma? That's what you propose. But since you can't convince everyone to sell all their things for gold, the first ones that do will just lose out. You're free to try it out, of course, I can buy your stuff for gold if you want.

Actions Karond, not auctions. Actions like travelling as a group from Misty Forest to the Sharpteeth Forest and camp there in order to take part in a war. Actions like warding the guild area.

I dont care whether people sell or trade items. that wont change much

[MopKnight]

Any system where money is spent solely on luxuries rather than necessities is inherently unstable and prone to inflation. The result is that substantial monetary goals (outfitting an entire legion of troops, for example) come out of the pockets of SINGLE CHARACTERS at the drop of a hat. Not even important characters. Just single characters.

There is a number of solutions to this (a number of which will cripple Karond) but it is not something anyone who has money will like.

If you want I can expand on that, but I will only do so provided people don't take it personally. I should also note that the idea that gold is effectively worthless and/or free devalues the idea of poverty.

[mrieder79]

Finally is not true that gold worths nothing. Just this week, i bought a longsword +3, 1d4 piercing, a longsword +3, 1d4acid, 2xdragonbreat, a greatsword +3, 1d8gold, 1d4 magical vs giants and a ring ( dodge, lightning reflexes, improved initiative and 10%cold immunity ). It is not like that every week but it happens.

This is true. I recently bought a greater blacksoul kukri (eb3, 1 piercin, 2 vamp regen) for gold.


Regarding shops:

If epic weapons are available for, say, 1.5 million, then that will help re-value gold. Anyone saving up for that weapon will be hesitant to spend their gold on anything else unless it has similar value. Players will be more willing to sell remarkable items for large amounts of gold if it makes it possible for them to purchase other remarkable items that they want.

[DM Golem]

I'm surprised the impact of muling (by this I do not mean having a storage character, but rather allowing the movement of wealth and items between PCs) is not being discussed in this thread:

- It allows players (not characters, individual PCs) to have a wealth and a buying power. In effect, an OOC buying power and one that actually circumvents what would otherwise be metagaming given it represents one players PCs interacting to IG effect. This buying power can distort the market, as one player with 5 million and the items found by 5 pcs devalues gold more than five PCs with 1 million and the items each individual PC found.

- It means that every time a new PC is made by an old hand player, instead of being a consumer of items and hunting for gear, they are outfitted from the players stores, and become a producer. There is no need for such PCs to enter the market to buy. And everything they find becomes "profit" for the player's account.

- It means that a single player can outfit his PC with specialist items from across all his accounts, keeping them from the open market (as if a barbarian PC finds a +4 charisma ring, if he wasn't allowed to mule it - he would sell it).

Add onto this the Auction House forum. it facilitates the best possible prices as all the wealthiest players become aware of the best items, and can bid on them equally, with little to no IG investment from the sellers.

(((For the avoidance of doubt, all of the above is fine and within the rules currently, and I do not criticise any player for playing in the environment we provide!)))

The main reason we allow mules is because of the lack of persistent storage (given the size of the server and the player base, persistent storage is, as I understand it, a difficult thing to enable here). Of course, in allowing mules we have allowed transfers between PCs on a given players account despite the distortion of both IC circumstances and the server economy.

It would be very difficult to enforce a ban on muling between PCs beyond the use of "storage" PCs each tied to an individual PC. It would require player buy in and policing of infractions we did find. It would also have a significant impact upon the enjoyment of many players, and on the valid achievements of many players.

Yet in my mind it would probably be the single thing that did the most to control inflation and promote the flow of items between PCs.

I suppose my point is is that the economics of a server like this, of this age, are complex, and there's never an easy answer that would please all. Its quite important to think through fully of the effects of any given proposal and view it in the context of the server as is.

[DM Golem]

To be clear, the above is not a "staff opinion" - its very much my own.

[Karond]

If you want I can expand on that, but I will only do so provided people don't take it personally. I should also note that the idea that gold is effectively worthless and/or free devalues the idea of poverty.

Please do. You can use me as an example too if you want. Even with my suggestion, I lose quite a bit since the value of all my tradables would diminish considerably. One can argue that I already have what I want though, so it doesn't mean too much to me, but mainly I would want to see it through because of fairness. I wish we were more equal in item power, as there are numerous benefits associated with that.

Yet in my mind it would probably be the single thing that did the most to control inflation and promote the flow of items between players.

Even if we eliminate cheating like Haven has with scripts (so you can't just drop items and pick them up on another PC, or sell to a merchant and buy with another PC, or give to a friend, who gives it to a friend, who gives it back to you etc.), I feel it would only increase frustration. Having a player pool all his resources and expanding his wanted item list (since he has several PCs and they each need different things), helps him to trade items with less waste of time. A restriction will just increase waste of time, as it puts a bigger focus on "I only need this, and I only have this"-trades.

That's in isolation, if that's the only action that we do. But, this restriction has more merit if the barter system was minimized as with the introduction of these shops the comic suggests. Then it wouldn't matter that your wizard found a greataxe, as he can painlessly exchange it for something he can use through the use of gold rather than having to find someone that wants the axe and has something of equal value that he wants. In this case, the restriction on muling would at least make wealth concentration more difficult. However, is it worth it? You get far less RCRs this way, but it also adds to frustration since you'll start over with each character, make permadeaths painful and punish every single mistake people do in their builds considerably. Not to mention, everytime you introduce new shiny feats, spells or such, to take advantage of them people are forced to start over on the server. It's very little benefit, and big drawbacks IMO.

[Charraj]

I think starting over can be fun by itself, actually. It gives value to even the +1 items you find. But that's from the point of view of a player who's been around a while. I imagine new players might not share that feeling.

I think we all mule/twink our new PCs, and we all know it's kind of metagamey. I personally wouldn't mind some kind of restriction on this, but yes, enforcing it would be tricky.

Also, I think I like Karond's idea of NPC merchants selling epic items. When I first saw his merchant in the Palace District, I thought it was too much. But then I realized it lets everyone have access to epic items, not just the old players. It really is fairer, IMO.

[Lux]

As a relatively new player I can say that the power disparity and worth of money or lack thereof has been noticeable to me. I personally like Karond's idea of merchants offering better gear.