Comic: The Economic system and why Karond is so rich...

[chad878262]

I dont think the DM vendor solution is viable however, since there is always a massive difference in DM activity say in the european "main" hours and the American main "hours", I can imagine people outside of these two regions see even less.

That would again catter to specific crowds, or like the quest experience topic debate indicates, be really unfavorable for those players that can only invest up to half an hour a day, at max.

I do like the idea about a crafting system and I do like the idea that it should be a massive gold requirement to apply it, but I also think the material component element is key, I know that it wont make gold the primary currency but it will go a long way.

What I dont agree to is just opening up for crafting of practically any item within the servers limitations. I think its an essential part in these kind of games that grand adventures and fighting some horrific dragon in its lair, should be more rewarding than crafting. And the implementation of a crafting system such as the one suggested above, will not change the distribution of wealth amongst the players. In fact I suspect Karond will kill said NPC, put on a wig and take over his buisness

Jokes aside, I dont know what the proper solution is, or if one is needed in honesty. I just think the crafting system could be very interesting, I just dont think it should give access to crafting the very best the module has to offer. But id really like to see more vendors with specialized goods such as the one in the gate district has, in average every character can use an item from his stall and rarely ever can anyone use two of them (in longer terms) so I think its a good balanced and variable stock, id love to see more of that kind.

The DMs could also make a forum post in the auction forums for a few items, timezones would no longer be an issue. If the player only gets on when no dm is available in sure that player could work something out with a dm our use a proxy to complete the transaction.

Unfortunately slaying the horrible Dragon is far more likely to win your heroic adventurer an empty ale stein than any decent magic item. Of course the heroic adventurer may not have bested the Dragon if it haven't spent the night drinking!

[mrieder79]

+1.

The issue is that the reward for adventuring is quite often peanuts.


The problem right now is that high end loot is so rare that unless you have very generous, very kind friends, have very good luck, spend ridiculous amounts of time looting, you aren't going to get it. Additionally, since gold is easily obtained and these items are not, the way to get these items is through trade of similar items, for the most part.

The solutions is to make this sort of thing available through shops or a gold-based crafting system. This allows people to have certainty that, after a given amount of time in which they amount the requisite gold amount, they will definitely get the end-game equipment they want.

If crafting requires rare components that can only be found then we are back where we started. The components will be traded the way epic gear is traded now.


I can guarantee you that if we implement vendors/crafters that require millions and millions of gold, you will see an increase in the value of gold. Yes, there are rich toons on the server, but not to the extent that they will exhaust the potential of these crafters/shops in the forseeable future. Many players have multiple toons they would like to outfit. Even someone like karond would only have the gold to outfit a few toons with high level gear.

[Darkcloud777]

I have never had a million gold. I consider myself rich with 500,000 gold. I just spent 600,000 gold for a guild hall. I had 34,000 left over.

[Ithilan]

The DMs could also make a forum post in the auction forums for a few items, timezones would no longer be an issue. If the player only gets on when no dm is available in sure that player could work something out with a dm our use a proxy to complete the transaction.

Well it also would add another chore to the DM's who would be met with 20 trade requests when they logged on, rather than spending time creating content for the playerbase perhaps Or maybe im a pessimist.

Unfortunately slaying the horrible Dragon is far more likely to win your heroic adventurer an empty ale stein than any decent magic item. Of course the heroic adventurer may not have bested the Dragon if it haven't spent the night drinking!

Well thats a sort of treasure to some people as well Nah jokes aside, I think thats a loot script issue that ought to be remedied or possibly give these boss type creatures very seperate functions, such as quest objectives or keys for chests/doors that could take your adventure further.
I.e. if there was a key drop in the Ogre Fortress of Troll Claws East, for a second level that was tougher but more rewarding.

+1.

The issue is that the reward for adventuring is quite often peanuts.


The problem right now is that high end loot is so rare that unless you have very generous, very kind friends, have very good luck, spend ridiculous amounts of time looting, you aren't going to get it. Additionally, since gold is easily obtained and these items are not, the way to get these items is through trade of similar items, for the most part.

The solutions is to make this sort of thing available through shops or a gold-based crafting system. This allows people to have certainty that, after a given amount of time in which they amount the requisite gold amount, they will definitely get the end-game equipment they want.

If crafting requires rare components that can only be found then we are back where we started. The components will be traded the way epic gear is traded now.


I can guarantee you that if we implement vendors/crafters that require millions and millions of gold, you will see an increase in the value of gold. Yes, there are rich toons on the server, but not to the extent that they will exhaust the potential of these crafters/shops in the forseeable future. Many players have multiple toons they would like to outfit. Even someone like karond would only have the gold to outfit a few toons with high level gear.

I do see your point about the components, so how about a component vendor seperate from the crafting vendor/stall that could perhaps be attached to bosses in variable dungeons. Angry wizards demanding dragons blood in trade for a rogue stone or similiar, I know that doesnt actively involve gold, but id like to integrate(!?) the world more than just farming towards X objective, be it gold or sheer drops, I want a reason to visit places and explore them thoroughly.

[mrieder79]

I think that selling components would be better than component drops. As a community we would need to decide if this is something we wanted to add as well.

[matelener]

I dont think the DM vendor solution is viable however, since there is always a massive difference in DM activity say in the european "main" hours and the American main "hours", I can imagine people outside of these two regions see even less.

That would again catter to specific crowds, or like the quest experience topic debate indicates, be really unfavorable for those players that can only invest up to half an hour a day, at max.

I do like the idea about a crafting system and I do like the idea that it should be a massive gold requirement to apply it, but I also think the material component element is key, I know that it wont make gold the primary currency but it will go a long way.

What I dont agree to is just opening up for crafting of practically any item within the servers limitations. I think its an essential part in these kind of games that grand adventures and fighting some horrific dragon in its lair, should be more rewarding than crafting. And the implementation of a crafting system such as the one suggested above, will not change the distribution of wealth amongst the players. In fact I suspect Karond will kill said NPC, put on a wig and take over his buisness

Jokes aside, I dont know what the proper solution is, or if one is needed in honesty. I just think the crafting system could be very interesting, I just dont think it should give access to crafting the very best the module has to offer. But id really like to see more vendors with specialized goods such as the one in the gate district has, in average every character can use an item from his stall and rarely ever can anyone use two of them (in longer terms) so I think its a good balanced and variable stock, id love to see more of that kind.

Right now the very best the module has to offer has been handed out years ago and no matter how many horrific dragons you slay (in DM events or not), you won't ever get any of those ^^ It's unfair but does it matter that much?

I think what matters more is how customizable our characters are and items could play a big role in that. Could, because on BGTSCC they don't. Firstly, because this is a "low magic" server which also should be read as a "low magic variation" server. Properties of items are very limited here and the ridiculous level requirement system filters what's mechanically useful even further (What's the point of a +2 EB/+ 1d4 ele dmg weapon when there's a commonly available +4 EB one with a similar level requirement). Secondly, because you simply can't get what you want even if it's of a moderate power and theoretically could be randomly generated. The best you can do is play a hoarding game and hope someone finds what you need and is willing to trade it. With low population this works absolutely horribly. A very, very basic crafting + enchanting system (to create niche, non-epic items) and an array of various high-end vendors (designed with care for lore) would make a lot of players happy.

[Caelin]

Vendors, vendors, vendors.

Gold is supposed to help promote trade. However the problem on this server is that it has only very limited value. There has to be an objective means by which to value gold in order for gold to have value.

If I want to buy a +2 greatsword on the server, I have two options. I can buy it from another player, or from a shop. Now say it is being sold in Nashkel for 8000 gold, and the player who I am talking to at the FAI wants to sell it to me for 8500 gold. Yeah it's slightly more than running to Nashkel, but who has the time to run that far for 500 gold? So I buy the greatsword. If he had tried to sell it to me for 15k gold, I'd say no easily and walk away. Because there is a reference point for value. I know roughly how much it *should* cost.

But here's where things break down. I acquired an item in a DM event a little while back. It's a +3 ax, with 1d4 fire and Flamestrike twice per day. Can't find that in a store anywhere. In fact it's hard to find anything even remotely like it in a store anywhere. It's not overpowered in terms of the server (god knows there are grandfathered items that make this laughably weak). So I saw a player on the server the other day looking for a battleaxe. I reach out to him, and we start talking. We discussed a trade, but unfortunately he had nothing I needed. So the talk switched to gold. And he admitted to me freely that he had no idea what an appropriate amount of gold would be for it. No idea. And the laughable thing was, I had no idea either. I jumped on IRC and heard "Somewhere between 100k and 300k gold." And I'm thinking... that's a really wide range.

Once you get items beyond the power of what can be found in shops, gold becomes meaningless. Because you can't reliably use it to buy what you want. Or even anything remotely like what you want. The economy is fine up to +3 items, because those can be replaced. We know approximately how much it would cost us to replace them. Above that, nothing. I have an axe I can't sell to anyone because I don't know what it's worth. That's kind of silly.

[Karond]

With all this nice discussion, and the hope that it's followed by staff-members, I've been inspired to make a new merchant. It's not much in the grand scheme of things, but it's something at least and he will be like Arnbjorn but themed with Gnomish tinkering and inventions instead of a barbarian theme. Hopefully I can get the developers to replace the Boareskyre bridge gnome with it.

It has to pass a QC review first though

[mrm3ntalist]

With all this nice discussion, and the hope that it's followed by staff-members, I've been inspired to make a new merchant. It's not much in the grand scheme of things, but it's something at least and he will be like Arnbjorn but themed with Gnomish tinkering and inventions instead of a barbarian theme. Hopefully I can get the developers to replace the Boareskyre bridge gnome with it.

It has to pass a QC review first though

Great news! It seems something good came out of all this discussion!

[mrieder79]

I'm making one too. It's not fair that only a few of us get to have fun toys to adventure with. Everyone should have a reasonable chance at it.

[Maecius]

I'm excited to hear that you are both sharing your time and your expertise with these matters. Here's hoping we get a couple new merchants everyone can enjoy.

Either way, though, thank you for choosing to give your time to making the server more fun for everyone.

[Steve]

And...don't forget that Rasael actually made an Enchanting System for BGTSCC. It's hanging around somewhere, and I believe it even went through a number of rounds of QC testing.

Seriously...Enchanting that costs uber Gold would get two daffodils with one bulb: take the burden off DMs to provide cool stuff to Players as Rewards (and reduce the perception of favoritism), and second, would allow Players to wantonly spend Coin, such that coin becomes more important than...what Karond has!

[Nyeleni]

I have used a merchant char (Niorae Yrojja, which almost only through trades made it to lvl 5) and have sold them for less than was expected. Sometimes some players wanted to pay more. But usually I traded only with newish players, or characters I knew weren't already an institution on the coast. So my price tag looked usually like this: lvl of item plus 1 or 2k.
Rarely I asked for double the lvl or even a bit more, when I knew the item was highly searched after, but still under the value which it appeared in the forum auctions.
And no forum auction with Niorae at all.

Very rarely have good items passed through my hands. And once or twice I have given free items out, to players who returned and had lost some valued items due to some negligence.

I find this kind of economy benefits everybody, instead of the hoarding and asking for incredible amounts of gold. If I see sometimes very high prices on the game auction I just smile and shake my head.

And once I've fallen for boots +4 valued at 60k, but only against blunt damage. I should have read it before buying.

Finally I'd love a crafting station. But instead of only asking for gold, I would make a mix of gold and xp. Thus it lowers the time for players who don't have too much time on their hands. Maybe only asking 500k for the highest ability. And a lot of experience points.

In this way veterans still would have an easier time. And it would make sense to keep playing lvl 30 chars, if you can do something useful with the spare xp, besides being an institution for rp .

[Hoihe]

I have used a merchant char (Niorae Yrojja, which almost only through trades made it to lvl 5) and have sold them for less than was expected. Sometimes some players wanted to pay more. But usually I traded only with newish players, or characters I knew weren't already an institution on the coast. So my price tag looked usually like this: lvl of item plus 1 or 2k.
Rarely I asked for double the lvl or even a bit more, when I knew the item was highly searched after, but still under the value which it appeared in the forum auctions.
And no forum auction with Niorae at all.

Very rarely have good items passed through my hands. And once or twice I have given free items out, to players who returned and had lost some valued items due to some negligence.

I find this kind of economy benefits everybody, instead of the hoarding and asking for incredible amounts of gold. If I see sometimes very high prices on the game auction I just smile and shake my head.

And once I've fallen for boots +4 valued at 60k, but only against blunt damage. I should have read it before buying.

Finally I'd love a crafting station. But instead of only asking for gold, I would make a mix of gold and xp. Thus it lowers the time for players who don't have too much time on their hands. Maybe only asking 500k for the highest ability. And a lot of experience points.

In this way veterans still would have an easier time. And it would make sense to keep playing lvl 30 chars, if you can do something useful with the spare xp, besides being an institution for rp .

Issue with XP cost is that it can break characters or is exploitable.

However, if it worked similarly to death and there were safeguards to prevent deleveling, it would work without the above mentioned troubles. Perhaps make it check if you have enough XP to spare before allowing you to proceed.

[maulofthetitans55]

You all seem to be missing the bigger issue here. It took Karond months to get his one merchant on the server and even that was edited. I laugh when people suggest an entire crafting system, do you not see how slow things happen here? Judging by the speed of patches there must be dozens of areas in the que just sitting there. We just had a good discussion about deleting inactive guilds, which slowly died off(as usual) despite the negative effect they're having on the server. That's what always happens here.

We need to address the real problem first e.g, why it takes so long for ANYTHING to happen. It literally takes 15 seconds to remove an unfinished class from the PrC list yet there they are, confusing new players for the YEARS to come. There doesn't seem to be a lack of QC or area builders so what exactly always holds everything up? Are the staff just deathly afraid of breaking the server? Well you shouldn't be, it's already broken.