Comic: The Economic system and why Karond is so rich...

[Ichabod]

Hey, all,

I played here a couple years ago for a while, and still lurk the forums. I DM on Realms of Trinity now, another NWN2 server. We've got a crafting/enchanting system akin to what someone here mentioned. You can forge bonuses into your gear based on how much gold you want to spend, but there are caps to the bonuses. You can raise these caps by progressing further in the "story" (Trinity has an extensive scripted campaign.) You can also add additional perks like Vampiric, Keen, and Freedom of Movement onto armor and weapons if you have 20 ranks invested in the appropriate skill (Craft:Armor or Craft:Weapon.) Further more, if you have achieved a particular level of craftsmanship and power, you can get a feat called Epic Craftsman, which further raises the cap for bonuses and whatnot. It is all prohibitively expensive to do top-tier crafting, so we have a series of feats automatically awarded for RP called "Mercantile Prowess I-V" which gives discounts to your forging.

For comparison's sake, forged gear is capable of reaching very near to the level of top-tier items which are considered "rare" drops. We are also very careful not to DM-forge gear which is better than what is available on the loot tables/forge, except in very extreme circumstances (I think I've exceeded scripted loot twice in a year of DMing.)

The above has served to make gold valuable.

We are extremely high magic, high power level. I have taken a dozen characters beyond level 30, and accumulated at least 100 million GP in my time on Trinity...and I've spent it all on forging. It's a wonderful gold sink. It ensures that I have something to do with all those GPs that adventuring brings in. It also serves as measurable progress...I can tell you exactly how close I am to achieving my "end-game" gear. The system in place has also de-valued items somewhat, such that people regularly give away excellent, unforged gear. The base gear is less of the focus - the quest to forge it becomes more of the focus. As such, you will regularly see people trading anything (short of a set item - SUPER rare, only useful if you finish the set, drop randomly for playing on Hard-Mode) for GP, and people frequently ask me for GP rewards from DM events instead of XP.

TL;DR - While the servers are very different, Trinity has a forging system, and it has served to make gold very valuable while also closing the item disparity between veteran players and new folk.

If anyone wants more in-depth info, the crafting stuff is on our Wiki page.

I'll go back to my lurking now...just wanted to offer proof of concept. BG still has a place in my heart, and I want to see our little community succeed.

[Karond]

And...NO MORE MULING (this would help give gold meaning again)!

That just wastes everyone's time, and there is barely any benefit to it. Even worse, you're proposing a first come-first served basis on merchant sales with them having limited gold, as people would quickly raise millions alone from selling junk instead of the 1350 gp cap we've now.

I'll go back to my lurking now...just wanted to offer proof of concept. BG still has a place in my heart, and I want to see our little community succeed.

So RoT's success story is making everyone spend abig chunk of their time crafting, and forcing every single character to become a crafter to equip themselves? That does seem rather niche.

[grymhild]

And...NO MORE MULING (this would help give gold meaning again)!

That just wastes everyone's time, and there is barely any benefit to it. Even worse, you're proposing a first come-first served basis on merchant sales with them having limited gold, as people would quickly raise millions alone from selling junk instead of the 1350 gp cap we've now.

isn't oocly muling gold and items across PCs a form of metagaming?

why not create persistent ig storage instead?

[So RoT's success story is making everyone spend abig chunk of their time crafting, and forcing every single character to become a crafter to equip themselves? That does seem rather niche.

why do you believe this would force every single pc to become a crafter?

couldn't a non-crafter pc commission items from crafter PCs?

[Steve]

why not create persistent ig storage instead?

Pray tell what do you mean, "create" it?

We already have it!

[Karond]

why do you believe this would force every single pc to become a crafter?

couldn't a non-crafter pc commission items from crafter PCs?

With what currency? I don't have the facts besides from what Ichabod wrote, but what he/she wrote is the choice between loot-running and the issues we've, or the choice of crafting what you want. This should drive most people to be crafters since it's the easy way to gain wealth and probably far more fun than grinding chests. Just that you can tailor the items to exactly what the character needs for slots and abilities is just a big boost compared to choosing between preset items when it comes to power, and the logical choice.

[Aspect of Sorrow]

why not create persistent ig storage instead?

Player housing that can be broken into.

[seawied]

Player housing that you have to pay RENT for!

[Ichabod]

Well, not every character becomes a crafter. Every player ends up having a crafting character if they play long enough - one character to do their crafting for all their toons. We have a persistent storage system in place. Something I should have mentioned: the first couple of tiers of crafting are still exchangeable, but once you get to the upper levels of crafting, the equipment becomes bound-to-account. At the most extreme, we have something called 'Legendary Metals' which causes the item to become bound-to-character. This makes the decision to do forging kinda a big deal, as once you forge something past a certain point, it becomes something you can't trade.

It also doesn't take "all of our time"...you'll have enough gold just finishing our story campaign to do a significant amount of crafting without any grinding at all. If you want to do the top-tier stuff, you'll probably have to save your pennies, grind a bit, and do some savvy money-making, though.

Easy access to crafting ensures a pretty predictable window of what a character who has finished the main story campaign is capable of in terms of numbers (similar to the bounded accuracy of 5th edition.) You can be reasonably sure that characters who are made for melee combat have an AC around 95-105, and an AB of around 70-75 (yeah, I know, crazy high, but within a pretty tight range - like I said, we're high magic, high power.) Casters will have DCs in the 65ish range. HP will be around 800, depending on class and itemization. Stuff like that. This makes it reasonably easy for our devs to design high-end content, as our forging system pushes up against the engine limitations for +12 to stats/+20 to magic AB/stats of 50. Basically, we know where the player base's stats are going to end up because everyone has easy access to the same stuff, so when we design content, we can get a good sense up front for what will be "hard" or "easy."

Also, we don't just craft. We have extensive guild stores with expensive, top-tier items in them, just as you suggested, Karond. Thing is, it's against the rules to share guild-items with non-guild members, and players (not characters) may only belong to one guild. This lets us parse out bonuses and control what groups have access to what bonuses...one guild might have better spellcaster stuff, while another has slightly higher AC stuff, so no one character will have access to all the best stuff. This has also served as an excellent gold sink, when mixed with the forging system. There's always something to optimize with your millions =)

Both these things have been suggested in this thread (epic item stores and expensive forging) and they have worked for us. Gold still has value because of these systems. I will say this, though - our progression is nothing like BG in terms of rate of leveling, numbers, or whatnot, so I'm not suggesting you use what we've got - you'd have to chop it to bits. All I'm saying is - we have the things you guys have suggested, and they work if your goal is to make gold valuable and eliminate the elite item barter subsystem.

[Mendoza]

Thanks Ichabod for chiming in on your experience using a similar system to what was suggested in this thread! Nice to have some input from someone who has some experience using such a system. As you commented, it provides a predictable window of what stats a character will have at higher level. On top of that, I would argue it provides new players the comfort of knowing that they can close the gap with people that have been around the server for years.

With what currency? I don't have the facts besides from what Ichabod wrote, but what he/she wrote is the choice between loot-running and the issues we've, or the choice of crafting what you want. This should drive most people to be crafters since it's the easy way to gain wealth and probably far more fun than grinding chests. Just that you can tailor the items to exactly what the character needs for slots and abilities is just a big boost compared to choosing between preset items when it comes to power, and the logical choice.

So, in short, you are against changing the current economic system the server has? And, more specifically, you against implementing any sort of enchanter NPC?

[Karond]

So, in short, you are against changing the current economic system the server has? And, more specifically, you against implementing any sort of enchanter NPC?

Have you been reading this thread, at all? Because you make yourself out to be very ignorant right now.

Well, not every character becomes a crafter...but once you get to the upper levels of crafting, the equipment becomes bound-to-account.

Which just guarantees everyone crafting even further, in effect, driving everyone to have a crafter. Anyway, not surprised it works out as it follows the arguments I put forth in this thread. The point I was arguing was more the first post, with "the above has served to make gold valuable", as it doesn't mention epic shops but solely states it comes from crafting. The main point is to make gold into a standard currency of trade, not to increase the value of gold (as that comes automatically with it being the currency of trade). If value increase was the sole goal, then limiting gold, introducing gold sinks or such could be done and our economy and difficulty in aquiring epic items for people would more or less remain at the current level. Crafting can help, it's in effect a shop consisting of hundreds of items in a compact space.

But realistically, it's been said that crafting will arrive soon to BG since....2009? And as a member of QC who is part of balancing and looking over how the system that is currently worked on looks like, it's quite clear that it can't be the holy grail in lessening item power disparity among players, or indeed, accessability of items. We would need epic shops, but of course, scaling that implementation process.

[Steve]

If value increase was the sole goal, then limiting gold...

Holy crap...you just admitted TheVoid and I are correct in our economic theory!



Still...Karond, you are awesome for building Epic NPC Merchants, but c'mon...what you are selling/trading is exponentially better Stuff, than your QC Approved NPC Merchant wares. That just shows that grinding/looting + persistence is far more productive than saving up Coin to buy from your NPC Merchant. The RIG is Great...unless your Horde is actually from DMs granting custom gear.

Enchanting has the capability to satisfy any Build or Player need, and though your NPC Merchants give awesome Lore-based items, that really isn't what Players want. They want flexibility, and customization.

And that Ras coded a system already...what really is stopping that from getting in game, except the Will?

[Mendoza]

So, in short, you are against changing the current economic system the server has? And, more specifically, you against implementing any sort of enchanter NPC?

Have you been reading this thread, at all? Because you make yourself out to be very ignorant right now.

Way to stay away from personal attacks and insults *slow clap* Some of us don't have the time to read 7 pages of a thread. I was just trying to get an idea of where you stood on the topic since you have been around awhile and arguably know the economic system of the server better than anyone; therefore, your opinion carries with it more weight than most others who play here.

But getting back on topic.... I think Steve summarized the argument for an Enchanter quite nicely:

Enchanting has the capability to satisfy any Build or Player need, and though your NPC Merchants give awesome Lore-based items, that really isn't what Players want. They want flexibility, and customization.

[Karond]

If value increase was the sole goal, then limiting gold...

Holy crap...you just admitted TheVoid and I are correct in our economic theory!



Still...Karond, you are awesome for building Epic NPC Merchants, but c'mon...what you are selling/trading is exponentially better Stuff, than your QC Approved NPC Merchant wares.

I've not denied that it will increase the value of gold, but where you and TheVoid are wrong is believing that it will solve the issues at hand.

To an extent, yes I do trade more powerful things quite often. The level has yet to be set. How much of a barter system do we want? Nullify it completely? Or just have the differences being somewhat negliable? While I do want a certain level introduced at a price that is quite a bit lower than the current market price, QC has been told by the DM staff to scale things slowly and all QC members who have voiced their opinion on the matter are of the same mind. We do not wish to shock the system en masse, as it changes things too fast and too sudden and gives little time to monitor the effect. Plus, in the past there has been plenty of mistakes when it comes to item balance due to a lack of mechanical knowledge from the staff, ignoring QC and/or QC not existing at the time (hello grandfathered items).

Arnbjorn is a step up from the normal merchants since with him +3 AC items were introduced to shops (with bonuses). The itemsets that are currently under review are slightly stronger than this, moving towards far more +4 EB weapons with bonuses, +4 AC armors with bonuses and generally item types that are less mechanically strong or are mostly useful to non-powerbuilds.

Not quite sure what holds the crafting system in place. It might need further testing, but stuff continuously gets added to it as well in excess (66 new material types, for example) and prolongs it. Ultimately, we can't push people to work on something voluntarily. I mean, there is some sense of duty involved, or should be, but the work needs to be done by developers, testers and the one implementing it. Maybe it can change now that Duster47 managed to get updating back.

Way to stay away from personal attacks and insults *slow clap* Some of us don't have the time to read 7 pages of a thread. I was just trying to get an idea of where you stood on the topic since you have been around awhile and arguably know the economic system of the server better than anyone; therefore, your opinion carries with it more weight than most others who play here.

Look Mendoza, it's fair that you don't want to read 7 pages. It's also fair that you aren't aware that I've worked more on itemsets than anyone else, in trying to bring a change forward, or spearheaded the discussion to get it going in that direction for the last 4 years (I've been the most active on crafting discussions and balancing as well in QC, although that investment is far off from what Rasael has done of course). There has been improvements, slowly, but its rapidly picking up speed now.

However, not even reading the first post of this thread? I did create this topic you know. I started this very discussion trying to bring in a change. I also do know of all the items we've in the module, and a lot about mechanical power in this game. So I also do hope that the opinion carries some weight, and it seems it is with how things are picking up now. I mean, most of the staff and QC are in agreement over this. That was impossible under previous DM constellations, and indeed, some QC constellations as well.

Btw, for reference, this is the itemset that I'm working on right now (Mrieder79 is working on another). It's far from the only intended itemset however, as we'll work to cover a wide amount of item types. The abilities and costs are subject to change before release:

Hidden: show

[th]Name[/th][th]Enchantments[/th][th]Cost[/th][tr][td]Backpack of Light Packing[/td][td]Cloak: +4 AC, 10% of weight, +4 tumble[/td][td]110.000[/td][/tr][tr][td]Belt of Three Blessings[/td][td]Belt: 3 level 3 cleric bonus slots[/td][td]80.000[/td][/tr][tr][td]Box of Shocks[/td][td]Miscellaneous item: Cast Call lightning (10) 5 uses per day[/td][td]72.000[/td][/tr][tr][td]Cap of Wizardry[/td][td]Helmet: lvl4 bonus slot wizard, +3 AC, +3 will saves, Spell Immunity: Feeblemind[/td][td]62.000[/td][/tr][tr][td]Cape of Agility[/td][td]Cloak: +3 DEX, +10 HP, +4 Parry, +4 Perform[/td][td]70.000[/td][/tr][tr][td]Club of Whacking[/td][td]Club: +4 EB, DC16 daze 50% 1 round, D4 sonic[/td][td]67.000[/td][/tr][tr][td]Crossbow of Impact[/td][td]Light Crossbow: +4 EB, +1 bludg damage, +2D8 massive criticals, improved critical: Light Crossbow[/td][td]88.000[/td][/tr][tr][td]Furnace Fires[/td][td]Miscellaneous item: Cast Flame Weapon (3)/1 charge, Cast Flame Weapon (10)/3 charges, 50 charges[/td][td]46.000[/td][/tr][tr][td]Girdle of Combat[/td][td]Belt: Bonus feat: Improved Critical Light Hammer, Weapon Focus Light Hammer, Weapon Specialization Light Hammer[/td][td]50.000[/td][/tr][tr][td]Glasses of Steel[/td][td]Helmet: +3 AC, +10 HP, 10% Electrical Immunity[/td][td]26.000[/td][/tr][tr][td]Gnomish Repelling Armor[/td][td]Breastplate: +4 AC, Bonus Feat: Dodge, 3/- damage reduction, 28 Spell Resistance[/td][td]234.000[/td][/tr] [table][th]Name[/th][th]Enchantments[/th][th]Cost[/th][tr][td]Gondian Dragon[/td][td]Light Hammer: +4 EB, D4 fire damage, Cast Dragon Fire Breast once per day, Visual: Fire[/td][td]87.000[/td][/tr][tr][td]Gond's Favor[/td][td]Light Hammer: +4 EB, +1 divine damage, Cast Hammer of the Gods (12) 2 times per day, Bonus feat: Dodge[/td][td]172.000[/td][/tr][tr][td]Googles of Sight[/td][td]Helmet: Bonus feat: Darkvision, Cast See invisibility (3) 5 times per day, Spot +4, Search +4, Open Lock +4, Craft Alchemy +4, Concentration +4, UMD +4[/td][td]200.000[/td][/tr][tr][td]Hammer of Timelocking[/td][td]Light Hammer: +4 EB, +1 magical damage, DC16 Slow 50%/1 round, Spell Immunity: Slow[/td][td]93.000[/td][/tr][tr][td]Hat of the Prankster[/td][td]Helmet: Bonus Feat Arcane Defense Illusion, Spell Focus Illusion, +4 Bluff, +4 Sleight of Hand[/td][td]50.000[/td][/tr][tr][td]Incorporeal Hammer[/td][td]Light Hammer: +4 EB, DC16 Lesser Dispelling on hit, D8 damage vs Incoporeal, Bonus Feat: Ghost Warrior[/td][td]132.000[/td][/tr][tr][td]Lantanese Acidspitter[/td][td]Light Crossbow: +4 EB, D4 acid damage, Acid Resistance 10/-, Cast Acid Bomb 2 times/day[/td][td]76.000[/td][/tr][tr][td]Lantanese Firespitter[/td][td]Light Crossbow: +4 EB, D4 fire damage, Fire Resistance 10/-, Cast Fire Bomb 2 times/day[/td][td]89.000[/td][/tr][/table]
[th]Name[/th][th]Enchantments[/th][th]Cost[/th][tr][td]Miracle Worker[/td][td]Light Hammer: +4 Craft Weapon, +4 Craft Armor, +4 Craft Trap, Cast Magic Vestment (13) once per day, Cast Greater Magic Weapon (15) once per day[/td][td]128.000[/td][/tr][tr][td]Myroc's Masterwork Mace[/td][td]Mace: +4 EB, +1 magical damage, +4 Will save, +2D6 Massive Criticals[/td][td]106.000[/td][/tr][tr][td]Pocket Dragon[/td][td]Miscellaneous Item: Cast Greater Fireburst once per day[/td][td]42.000[/td][/tr][tr][td]Poot's Great Fizzlebang[/td][td]Light Hammer: +4 EB, D4 electrical damage, 20% Electrical immunity, Keen, Visual: Electrical[/td][td]145.000[/td][/tr][tr][td]Pouch of Poshness[/td][td]Belt: +3 AC, +3 Appraise, Bonus Spell Slot bard level 2&3[/td][td]60.000[/td][/tr][tr][td]Sharpest Tool in the Shed[/td][td]Handaxe: +4 EB, Keen, Massive Critical D10, On hit DC16 Wounding[/td][td]135.000[/td][/tr][tr][td]Solver Prototype[/td][td]Miscellaneous Item: Cast Knock (3) 2 times/day, Cast Light (5) 2 times/day[/td][td]9000[/td][/tr][tr][td]The Big Thunderer[/td][td]Morningstar: +4 EB, D4 electrical damage, +1 sonic damage, Cast Call Lightning (5) 5 uses/day, Lightning Bolt (10) 4 uses/day, Chain Lightning (20) 2 uses/day, Visual: Electrical[/td][td]488.000[/td][/tr][tr][td]The Thunderer[/td][td]Light Hammer: +4 EB, +1 Electrical, +1 Sonic damage, Cast Arc Lightning (7) 5 uses/day, Cast Chain Lightning (20) once/day, Visual: Electrical[/td][td]216.000[/td][/tr][tr][td]The Blazing Cloak of Flames[/td][td]Cloak: 30% fire immunity, Fire resistance 5/-, +3 saves vs fire, -3 saves vs cold, Cast Endure Elements (2) 3 uses/day[/td][td]100.000[/td][/tr][tr][td]The Blue Cloak[/td][td]Cloak: Bonus Spell Slot Level 4 for Wizard, Druid, Cleric, Paladin and Ranger, Bonus Feat: Combat Casting[/td][td]60.000[/td][/tr][tr][td]The Cleverest Cleaving Cleaver[/td][td]Handaxe: +4 EB, Bonus Feat: Cleave, D4 Bludgeoning damage, +3 Intelligence[/td][td]155.000[/td][/tr][tr][td]The work of Urdlen[/td][td]Mace: +4 EB, DC16 poison D2 STR damage on hit, D4 acid damage, +2 saves vs poison[/td][td]112.000[/td][/tr][tr][td]Thinking Glasses[/td][td]Helmet: +2 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom, +4 Diplomacy, +4 Intimidate, +4 Bluff, +4 Taunt, +4 Sense Motive[/td][td]46.000[/td][/tr][tr][td]Vretix's Secret[/td][td]Cloak: Cast Ghostly Visage (15) once/day, Bonus feat: Mobility, +3 Strength[/td][td]70.000[/td][/tr]

[thids]

I would much rather have the entire loot table, along with all the epic items, available in the shops than open the can of worms that is the crafting system. Holes in that loot table can be filled over time by adding more items to shops. The current situation is just outright bad, we have all agreed on that. It is also ridiculously biased towards some weapons and against others.


I've been here 2 years and I've seen quite a few items and merchants added, yet I keep asking myself "where is the more common weaponry?". Not only build-wise, but setting-wise as well. Where are the long swords? Where are the scimitars? We had a couple of short swords added last year luckily. There's what? Two? Three long swords maybe? I'm not even sure anymore. Scimitars are even worse, there's one available. One. There's only 2-3 great swords if I'm not mistaken as well. Battleaxes? Are there any in the shops? Great axes?

It's like players who are aware of what's available in the shops are actively discouraged from picking common weaponry for their characters, while picking katanas, butterknives and similar usually rarer and underused weapons seems encouraged.

[grymhild]

am I the only one concerned with putting class specifc feats like weapon specialization into items?