Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

I have some concerns and suggestions on the changes to the SoH skill in relation to picking pockets of NPCs and PCs (scroll down).

My first concern is that the message a victim of the theft receives will cause grieving, meta-gaming and changes in the RP of the victim towards the halfling alleged thief. One of the more popular methods of picking a pocket is to stealth up behind the target.... but there are many more ways a character can make a theft. Some players emote the "bump" while others have more creative ways to RP an opportunity. I understand why the staff might think there is a need for this message but if the staff can consider removing this message and increasing the time the halfling thief can pick pocket a specific target, the chances of a halfling thief using SoH as a grieving tool will be greatly limited. Anything less than once per reset is a gift anyway!

Next is how the theft is handled when the theft is successful against the target but then detected by near by NPCs or PCs, especially when the thief is stealthily making the attempt. The halfling thief doesn't get gold if caught like this (can this be confirmed?) AND his stealth is not broken. The opposite of both should be considered... the gold should be rewarded even if seen by others AND stealth should be broken.

Finally, an automatic toggling hostile by those who are involved in calling out the halfling thief would aid in the victim and witnesses in reacting to the halfling alleged thief committing the crime. It can be difficult to near impossible for the player to work camera angles then use the mouse to highlight the thief while the little halfling thief is making a run for it.

The current changes are a wonderful addition in how thieving works here as they are now! I have always thought that others in the area should be given an opportunity to see the theft, especially NPC gards that can actually arrest a thieving character. But maybe a little tweaking can make it an even better system. Thanks for any considerations!

Nihm wrote:My first concern is that the message a victim of the theft receives will cause grieving, meta-gaming and changes in the RP of the victim towards the halfling

that message is -suppose- to be getting removed...

How can a character actually pick a pocket when they are hiding in a shadow?

Blackman D wrote:

Nihm wrote:My first concern is that the message a victim of the theft receives will cause grieving, meta-gaming and changes in the RP of the victim towards the halfling

that message is -suppose- to be getting removed...

Ah, good to know! Thanks, BMD!

stevebarracuda wrote:How can a character actually pick a pocket when they are hiding in a shadow?

I'm not sure how the question is relevant to the topic... do you have a specific question about the post? If you can quote the part of my post to which you are referring it might help me to respond to the question.

Nihm wrote:One of the more popular methods of picking a pocket is to stealth up behind the target....

Does Sleight of Hand attempts—whether success or fail—drop a PC from stealth?

success no, fails yes

Does opening a chest take a PC out of Stealth? Is a pocket or pouch like a chest, at least conceptually?

that was done for ninja looters... kinda hard to ninja loot a PP...

so no its not the same

stevebarracuda wrote:Does opening a chest take a PC out of Stealth? Is a pocket or pouch like a chest, at least conceptually?

You devil! I see what you are doing.

Opening a chest does take you out of stealth. I think it was added to prevent sneakers from ninja looting ( someone correct me if i am wrong ). An OOC measure.

Are you suggesting another kind of "nerf" to those who hide?

mrm3ntalist wrote:Are you suggesting another kind of "nerf" to those who hide?

Would I be such a jerk to suggest this?!?! And please, don't ask Mav to answer that hypothetical.

I know why it was changed so that ninja looters on chests were stopped. But seriously, thieves hiding in shadows in broad daylight beating sun opening a pouch and/or pocket and removing coin...c'mon.

Sure, we can RP that the thief was ACTUALLY hiding in the pocket's shadow...blah blah. It's a kinda fun idea.

Being in Stealth, and picking pockets is just lame. That means old timers with uber stealth gear can just LOLZ PP any PC on the Server, and excuse themselves from any RP, because they'll never be Spotted on the SoH DC...and even more so, as BMD pointed out, on the H/MS spot check.

Sleight of Hand—which is what is the Skill related to picking pockets—is much more than just not being seen while picking pockets. It has many more uses.

But my point is: don't allow SoH to be a "perfect win" for those that can H/MS without detection, because of mechanics, and be free from any RP (except, as Atlas makes a point, to OOC brag about it for the LOLZ).

I hope you all realize I am speaking to this subject as an individual who has been picking pockets for years, and have been working with Devs for years to improve the "reality" and benefits of the Action, for RP purposes. So I care...and not care just to "ruin it" for everyone. But what DOES ruin it is when Players rely on the mechanical benefits of their build and their Gear, so that they can win.

stevebarracuda wrote:And please, don't ask Mav to answer that hypothetical.

Uhm... too late

I know why it was changed so that ninja looters on chests were stopped. But seriously, thieves hiding in shadows in broad daylight beating sun opening a pouch and/or pocket and removing coin...c'mon.

Sure, we can RP that the thief was ACTUALLY hiding in the pocket's shadow...blah blah. It's a kinda fun idea.

Being in Stealth, and picking pockets is just lame. That means old timers with uber stealth gear can just LOLZ PP any PC on the Server, and excuse themselves from any RP, because they'll never be Spotted on the SoH DC...and even more so, as BMD pointed out, on the H/MS spot check.

Sleight of Hand—which is what is the Skill related to picking pockets—is much more than just not being seen while picking pockets. It has many more uses.

But my point is: don't allow SoH to be a "perfect win" for those that can H/MS without detection, because of mechanics, and be free from any RP (except, as Atlas makes a point, to OOC brag about it for the LOLZ).

I hope you all realize I am speaking to this subject as an individual who has been picking pockets for years, and have been working with Devs for years to improve the "reality" and benefits of the Action, for RP purposes. So I care...and not care just to "ruin it" for everyone. But what DOES ruin it is when Players rely on the mechanical benefits of their build and their Gear, so that they can win.

Dont listen to anyone else... just listen to me... I know everything! Hips is a magic/supernatural ability. You only need a farts shadow and... you are hidden! Magic... I am telling you!

On a bit more serious note, it is not that easy as you make it look. Here are some points
- If you fail the PP you drop out of stealth. So at first it is a Spot vs SoH. Not too bad.
- In order to be certain to PP, you need to have SoH gear on. That means less hide/ms gear which in turn means it is easier to be spotted.
- Now, it is not thief VS target, but thief VS everyone around you. A druid standing at an area, makes PP difficult if not impossible.
- Finally, SoH/PP was always like this. I dont think it caused any issues, since the gains are so little - or you can have the same gains easier and safer another way - that most dont even bother with PP.

I think PP needs some mechanical and gear investment, with few rewards - 70 gold per attempt. I think it is fine as is currently.

Hey M3nt, maybe then their should be a clarification of something BMD stated in another but related thread:

Blackman D wrote: for example on one of my robbery runs i came across a group of 3 chatting in on a riverside... profiling the group there was a fighter looking type, labeled him blind, two chicks one was human, labeled her blind, and an elf, labeled her as possibly spotting me

stole from the two possibly blind ones first and yea they were bats, stole from the elf and sure enough she caught me and i just stood there... for like 20 seconds... no one said anything was just silence, i was waitin for it tho and nothin happened so i stealthed and left, her spot was enough to see my PP but nowhere close enough to see me in stealth

In addition, it is far too easy to Metagame peoples level via the SCRY, then stealth up to them and pick their pockets, all the time in stealth, so the lowbies don't even have a chance to role-play being "interacted with" by another Character.

And PS— usually I DO LISTEN to you! Usually....

you must never rolled a toon with PP if you think that means my stealth was godly

when you do a SoH check the person doing the action sees the check rolls, after you do it you know exactly what their spot is and if its not within 20-25 of your stealth then they will never see you even if they see your SoH

there have been screenies of SoH rolls posted plenty of times, granted people black out who is doing it and the base rolls, but amongst thieves and spotters that not exactly uncommon knowledge - as far as that situation, i dont mind pvp i stood there waiting for it!

so you can have a 5 spot, catch a 15 skilled SoH on someone with 33 h/ms, which isnt a lot, and no that particular thief of mine doesnt have high stealth, my hin who has less SoH is more focused on not being seen and uses SoH for the rp value (escaping ropes and such)

dont try to read into what people are sayin about SoH too much tho, and it is rather easy to catch a PP if you have detection because as pointed out you have to invest in it gear wise and no one is gonna pick that over stealth, unless they are walking right up to you in plain sight then you argument about needing to pull out of stealth is moot because they arent even using it and still robbing you blind and getting more for it

but SoH vs spot is just like stealth vs detection, if you dont invest in detecting people dont expect to be able to see them, no advantage/change is gonna get added just because are blind

i wouldnt call it a perfect win either because it does pull you out of stealth when you fail, is the easier one to spot, and it is auto pvp consent, if people dont like pvp thats a diff issue, but with the pvp rules the thief is kinda screwed if they are caught in a group

and honestly... lets face it, and anyone who has a PPing thief knows it, PP doesnt give you much for it to be worth investing a lot in anyway which is the reason its so easy to catch, you are talking 33 ranks or less plus Dex the majority of the time, which only gives up to a 43 SoH meaning you need a 35 spot to catch a roll of a 1, which is easy to get, class or cross class

also with no bags or storage, you are talking limited space for gear (more importantly less room for loot ) which is another reason its not invested much

but as far as mechanics, the game is kinda built around them... those that understand them are the ones that dont have the issues, those that dont usually ask for help however when you have mechanics like stealth, detection, SoH, feint, epic dodge, HiPS, even knockdown, then the build doesnt matter too much, some work better with abilities more than others sure, but if you dont understand how they work its kinda irrelevant, using them or having them used on you

not sure you can say people who use mechanical abilities they took the time to invest in ruining it for people who cant counter those abilities, doesnt mean everyone is gonna high spot (stealth/feint/SoH/HiPS), high BAB (feint/epic dodge), high STR or DEX (knockdown) so they can stand a chance, might as well not even have the stuff in game at that point

the closest thing you can honest add was just added... and thats everyone getting a roll to see the SoH which only increases the risk of using SoH with the same low reward... far from a perfect win

hope that came across more as being thorough than ranting or something, dont think i missed anything

You covered everything nicely Blackman D. Now.... lets talk about... Paladins!

oh there was one thing i guess i forgot to explain, about the situation i posted

keep in mind, i was in the area for a few minutes before the first SoH, watching to figure out what they were doin, SoH is on a 30s cooldown, so by the time i got to the elf im close to 5 mins in that area, if she didnt spot me by then she wasnt gonna

so i already knew none of them could see me in stealth so when you do the SoH attempts and you see how blind they are, again if you are not within 20-25 you are not close enough, i wasnt exaggerating that statement, i meant rolling a 20 and getting any other mechanical bonus to spot they were still not gonna ever see me