The Alignment System & "Real" Alignments

[stevebarracuda]

Hello,
About every year or so, I make a post referring to a web site that has been a boon for me to develop a deep understanding of the Alignment System of D&D, and to build characters that can be simplistic in a label of "this alignment," but actually be positive, deep and thrilling "beings" to Role-play, from a better understanding of the complexity of morals (that which the simple Alignments are based upon, or, are established to guide RP of any PC).

So, here is the general link, for those that have never seen any of my previous posts on it:

http://www.easydamus.com/alignment.html

Below is another page on this web site called Are There "Real" Alignments?:

http://www.easydamus.com/alignmentreal.html

It is a very good read, and imparts good a basis for looking at each available Alignment as "positive," so that it makes it easier and enjoyable to Role-play...even Chaotic Evil!

All credit to the author zybstrski. Enjoy, and may it improve your gaming experience!

-Steve

[Endelyon]

Very nice! I like it a lot.

[Karond]

I like it too. One thing that seems difficult to grasp sometimes is that being evil in FR is entirely as valid as being good. I mean, in RL societies and religions like to brand people evil and punish them when they act or believe opposing things. But in FR, being evil carries the same reward as being good for some reason. Hello happy afterlife. My soul is forever safe.

So yeah, this is really nice to point that out.

[Ricastle]

Hedonism isn't considered evil in DnD. Sharess and Sune are Chaotic Good. By strict definition it is not good nor evil, but likely not a desirable quality . Opinions will vary widely and it cannot be discussed here on this forum as it stems from ideological or political beliefs.

The writer is likely looking for the word egocentric: thinking only of oneself, without regard for the feelings or desires of others; self-centered.

[stevebarracuda]

I think the breakdown for Evil alignments to be referred to as sybaritic, ambitious and ascendent is right on. Like Karond points out—in a World designed to have equally valid evil and good Gods, such that there is a promising afterlife for those that worship at the altar of any Aligned God, AND that that fundamental is a known issue, unlike Real Life, where the Afterlife is complete unknown...

...yeah, if you want to, you can follow the rabbit down the hole...very, very far.

But Chambo: this is the beauty of D&D! It is a game of stereotypes where one can play TO or AGAINST them. Shall a Lawful Good Paladin always act LG? No. Will she lose their Paladin gifts shall they perform—or even think—a Chaotic Evil act? This is the whim or reasoning that a Dungeon Master must add to the mix. Usually, in PnP, one picks their Dungeon Master, and thus, there is a relationship to the development and actions of the Player Character. CRPG PWs do not always allow one to pick the DM.

But back on point: NOT having Blackguards save puppies [LOL] kittens from trees on regular occasion is WHY, I dare say, Alignments exist. Sure, play a chaotic monk to your hearts desire. But I remind you: D&D is full of stereotypes, and Classes reflect the stereotypes, and in such a way, give your PC bonuses for playing that stereotype. Paladins are not fighters are not thieves. But you are welcome to play a mix of them, hence multi-classing. Alignments serve as guidelines against total anarchic free-for-all. And if Alignment is not somehow respected, we might as well have Demons having high tea with unicorns, because hey, why not?!?!

It's not the purpose. Some form of reliability is needed. Some form of structure. Personally, looking at the link(s) I shared, and reading them with focus, helps me realize I do not need to heed others vision or dogma about what any Alignment means, instead, I can construct my own using Key Terms and definitions, even just one, that outlines the complete RP reason for my PC's morals.

Alignment: it's a tool. And most tools are useless unless learned, with skill, how to wield them.

[Lockonnow]

stevebarracuda youre a danger man on this server you know to much hehe well anyway i wonder what you eles do whan youre not on the play side

[thids]

some others take it as the agglomeration of their character's past actions, not particularly striving to stay on a specific alignment's path...

This is what alignment for PC's is. Your character's mindset, values, view of the world and motivations are not set by their alignment, it's the other way around. Your character acts depending on those things and those actions determine your alignment. The only issue we have on a large PW is that not every action our characters take can result in alignment points, in fact very few do. It's the reason we have kitty saving blackguards, chaotic monks and thuggish paladins here from time to time.

[kleomenes]

some others take it as the agglomeration of their character's past actions, not particularly striving to stay on a specific alignment's path...

This is what alignment for PC's is. Your character's mindset, values, view of the world and motivations are not set by their alignment, it's the other way around. Your character acts depending on those things and those actions determine your alignment. The only issue we have on a large PW is that not every action our characters take can result in alignment points, in fact very few do. It's the reason we have kitty saving blackguards, chaotic monks and thuggish paladins here from time to time.

I have to say I agree with Thids here. And changing alignments are not a problem when one views this game as collaborative storytelling - it just represents development not "bad play" or "character failure". In fact I myself consider such development the highest goal in RP when its through interaction of other characters, unscripted.

[stevebarracuda]

Your character's mindset, values, view of the world and motivations are not set by their alignment, it's the other way around. Your character acts depending on those things and those actions determine your alignment.

Therefore, if your PC acts like a hedonistic, achievement-at-any-cost by desire of self-serving stimulation, you have...an Alignment.

I do think that alignments work best to guide DMs to represent NPCs and mobs, those often being the most stereotypical aspects of the game. But, considering actual limits in the D&D game—that being alignment requirements for Classes—is it not helpful to the Player, and therefore the RP, to know what aspects of certain alignments should be representative in any Player Characters morality? I think that is what is most helpful from reading the source I have shared.

Maybe I need to just say this in case it is not obvious: I am not telling anyone how to RP their PC's alignment. But I do think every PC has an alignment, as is defined by a Character Sheet. You all do remember this Server's Rule of: "Play your Character Sheet," yes?

To put it plainly: if you cannot place definitions to the morality of Paladinhood, for example, you cannot determine the means by which a Paladin can fall from grace. This is probably the most extreme of examples, but it is a intrinsic part of the D&D game.

Look at one definition of Role-play: "to act out the role of; to represent in action." Characters can be complex. Characters can be wrestling with both Good and Evil aspects of personality. Variation is possible. Also why Alignments have 2 axis and Neutral middleground—to round out extremes. This is also why alignment can change, as noted by kleomenes. Is the highest goal in RP to adjust one's Alignment based on interaction? I think it can be argued the highest goal could be to maintain one's conviction/morals (alignment) in the face of interaction. Tomato, tomatoe.

Best to just say: attempting for Role-play in general, is best practice. And if something is listed on a Character Sheet, then take a chance to get to know aspects of that.

[bono_bob]

You can tell the guy doesn't play a lot of paladins orknow anything about Torm or Bahamut's benevolent nature :p

[stevebarracuda]

I wanted to add to the "list" an article from the magazine Dragon, no. 163, titled: Making Law Out of Chaos.

It's an AD&D article, from all the way back in 1990—how many of you were even alive then?!?—but that is what makes it great: the simplicity of the game was classic, and this article helps to break down—as well as forge ahead—the reason for Alignments, what they mean in the context of the D&D game, and why they are, for lack of better words, undeniable to playing D&D.

Below is the first few paragraphs, and the last few paragraphs...to wet your appetite:

Why have alignments?
Perhaps the best place to begin this topic is in a rather touchy area. Here we will define the age-old differences between good and evil, law and chaos of the forces of light and darkness, order and disorder and the reasons for the existence of these forces (and that of neutrality) in the AD&D game.
Good, evil, law, and chaos exist as universal balancing forces. Without all four, neutrality would not exist, humans and demihumans could not make moral and ethical choices. Without opposing forces, there would be no measure by which virtue and sin could be rewarded or atoned for in the afterlife.
But the multiverse is neither good nor evil, ordered nor chaotic. The choices of its intelligent creatures, both mortal and immortal, create the circumstances of life on any given plane, world, or specific society. And, since the majority of AD&D game societies have already manifested a world view of good, PCs and NPCs will be under severe constraints and biases when they attempt to define their own good. Nonetheless, many will choose to scorn good or at least think of it as irrelevant when they seek places in the social order. But such conflict is, after all, what makes the AD&D game interesting and viable. Without conflict between good and evil, or law and chaos, what would be the point of adventuring?

---

The (final) last words
Not all traits listed under a particular heading or ethos are equally applicable to every character of that alignment. As one example, the degree of generosity in a lawful-good character can vary greatly, depending upon certain factors such as the character's own means. But out-and-out stinginess shouldn't be a lawful-good trait by anyone's reckoning. As another example, a chaotic-neutral character might care not a whit for monetary gain (surely some kind of deviant recidivist), but he must be motivated by something, be it only the simple pleasures of dungeon-trashing and monster-bashing (watching the evil element, of course). As a final example, a neutral-evil being may find pointless torture and suffering distasteful, or at best be indifferent toward it (another hopeless aberration, to be sure).
Lastly, it must always be kept in mind that, when dealing with human or demi-human foibles and imperfections, there is no such thing as pure "goodness" or "badness." A reasonable DM should see nothing wrong with, say, a paladin having a bad day wherein he snaps at everybody, kicks his dog for soiling his favorite suit of armor, or even loses his temper and yells at a persistent beggar. And the world isn't likely to end if a chaotic-evil thief helps an old lady across the street without thereafter mugging her, or gives a copper to a blind man.
After all, nobody's perfect.

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[Steve]

And so, after having a small conversation with Zannij about Alignment—you'll never figure Caed out!!!—I thought it appropriate to *bump* this. Enjoy Zan!

[Zanniej]

Least you could do was write my name correctly Steev

[Mac]

Alignment. Its always just been training wheels for RP right?

DM "You are a lawful good paladin. NO! You can not agree with the thief that all the imprisoned villagers should now pay a tax directly to your adventuring party. Their Freedom is repayment enough."

PLAYER "Lame! Are their Chaotic Good Paladins that still get Holy Avengers? I'm more like the Chaotic Good Type!"

DM "*Sigh*"

Honestly I was glad they just got rid of the whole Alignment System after 2nd edition.

Although the alignment system does kind of work. Give me any major fictional character of the last 50 years. I could likely argue what their alignment is with you

Am I the only one that spends their time this way?.....

[Steve]

The Alignment aspect is a Tool for Role-play. Most tools require a certain amount of training, for proper use.

This Server follows a principle of "Play your Character Sheet." If there exists an Alignment on it, then...