Incoming Update

[thids]

I redistributed my lore skillpoints on Max appropriately, and I saved a few extra skillpoints by not taking bluff on cross class levels in epics, which was difficult to do without the 100% RCR since bluff is his bread and butter. That's about it.


I shelved my Drow for the time being, seeing as I didn't play him much lately anyway and the update made his build go from bad to horrid. I knew the risks perfectly when I made him though. I'll remake him again someday with a different build most likely, though still revolving around the same theme.

[Snarfy]

I can't understand why people would make radical changes to their class composition if it doesn't fit their RP. Don't go FotM, if you're going to change anything use the opportunity to change things to fit your character more, not less.

And therein lies the rub, and the conundrum potential, I believe. From an IC standpoint, for the longest time certain magics and abilities worked in a particular way, and in a way our characters were used to. Now, for whatever reason(again, IC'ly speaking) they work differently, and we as players have to figure out how to translate that into role-play and incorporate that into our concepts.

Your approach sounds like it's working for you, and that's a good thing. But for some others... well, using this opportunity to tailor a build more towards a concept, for old characters or new, could easily leave them mechanically impotent in this brave new world. Likewise, some players do not like the idea of having to alter their long-time concept just because things have, rather abruptly, changed. This is where certain players and their character concepts might be left in limbo.

On the other hand what is it specifically that stops your RP suddenly? For those with spell casters the BIgby change is big but are there not many many other spells a caster should use? Hadn't bigby become a lazy man's go to spell instead of really utilizing the full spell book at times? Just an opinion for me as I do not play arcanists I am not smart enough for them. Hell I am barely smart enough to play Kory as a divine guy and I still fubar it badly.......

It doesn't stop the RP necessarily(not for me at least), but it will cause a few hiccups, as players try to IC'ly comprehend and explain why they think the wheel reinvented itself.

Kudos to you for trying to tackle such a drastic shift in your concept though, I know I couldn't do it.

[Rhifox]

Your approach sounds like it's working for you, and that's a good thing. But for some others... well, using this opportunity to tailor a build more towards a concept, for old characters or new, could easily leave them mechanically impotent in this brave new world.

Then be mechanically impotent? I don't understand this need to have every character be mechanically powerful (especially when "mechanically powerful" here tends to mean 'can solo epic areas and some epic bosses').

When you look at stats of major lore characters in Forgotten Realms, very few if any are built to be the absolute best possible combination of classes and feats that they can be. I don't see why that should be different for player characters.

[Damienknight]

Being strong does not inherently inhibit role playing. Being weak does not innately improve role playing. If power level and role playing are independent of each other, then roleplaying should not be a strong factor in determining how to build a character so that their numbers are neat.

Your role playing is the way your character interacts with other players, not the way they kill mobs.

On the other hand, being weak can reduce enjoyment of the game, whilst being strong can improve it. Why not try and have the most fun?

[Ivan38Rus]

I predict every argument in relation to roleplay potency vs character build to just boild down to this:



Can we skip that? I'm sure we're better than this.

[Snarfy]

Then be mechanically impotent? I don't understand this need to have every character be mechanically powerful (especially when "mechanically powerful" here tends to mean 'can solo epic areas and some epic bosses').

Umm, there's a massively wide gulf between being mechanically impotent and mechanically powerful. I sincerely doubt that any player would choose to build a gimp rather than opt for mechanical viability, even if they were the most hardcore RP'er. I also doubt that players whose characters become impotent from sweeping mechanical changes would enjoy playing or RP'ing such.

FYI, I happen to play a build that cant solo or even explore places where most of the higher level content can be found. In the greater scheme of mechanics, my character would be considered somewhere between viable and a gimp, and its a concept I've stuck with for 4 years for the sake of staying true to my RP. Let me tell you... 4 years is a long time to never explore Durlags depths, or fight the Balor, or take a stroll through numerous other areas because the content caters to PB's. Having said that, and even if I tend to be adamant in my RP, I would encourage players to build a viable character that adheres to their concept over an impotent one any day of the week.

*edit* : Although, what was "mechanically viable" before might not be now, so... good luck with that!

[Rhifox]

What's the difference between a gimp build and a simply less-viable one?

As for content, you've not had an opportunity to go to those places with groups?

[Snarfy]

What's the difference between a gimp build and a simply less-viable one?

As for content, you've not had an opportunity to go to those places with groups?

I could give you an example of the difference, but that's about it: Gimp build - Anything rogue heavy. Or swashbuckler, period. Less viable? Umm, rogue dipped builds to get expose weakness for the AB heavy type, or swashbuckler splashes to get dread pirate + other PRC's. Or something. I don't know, TBH. I really only enjoy playing sneaks, so there you have it.

And yes, I've gone to Durlags with others, but it was a brief visit before my character got gang-piled by everything that rounded the corner, and then ultimately murdered by a drow player So much for RP incentive to go back there! Even with a group. Vault of the dead? Nope, never seen it. Serpent hills? Been there twice in groups... still horrible. Not to mention that some characters don't function well in groups *cough*... nor do some players enjoy being in a party with others that zerg around like murderous mutes. But, I digress.

None of this has anything to do with my original question and concern, mind you, which is one of how players are adapting and adjusting their RP to accommodate for the nature of their powers changing abruptly because of the mechanical shifts we've seen.

[Young Werther]

IG power level tbh

[Invoker]

Like Snarfy implied, many less experienced people (or simply less mechanically savvy, which isn't a crime, nor a problem per se) tend to think in absolutes when it comes to a build's power.

The truth is, there are a lot of stages, with a few "milestone" feats that can make a sensible build "viable" even when many choices are dictated by RP instead of sheer mechanics.

Roughly, you can see it like this:

There are builds (power builds) that can solo everything with ease (many of them before update, less now, but still a decent amount). Examples: pure STR Bard, Dragon Druid, EDM Cle, EDM FS, Blaster Warlock and many more.

There are builds (strong builds) that are good, but don't reach that kind of power. Still able to go everywhere and contribute in every environment, but since they were made with RP in mind, and only then "optimized" (so AFTER putting RP boundaries down, and choosing classes and key feats according to background, and thus passing up power), it is complicated to solo the higher level content, with player on-the-fly decisions and strategies determining the outcome (running in and "facetanking" usually kills you) and a few weaknesses the AI can exploit and send you to the fugue due to RNG. Examples: typical, non-powerbuilt casters and melee casters like a reasonable CHA Spirit Shaman, WIS Cleric, a pure Ranger or Paladin and a lot more. This type of character constitutes the vast majority of BGTSCC's vault. Perfect examples of this are mrm3ntalist's ranger, Mendel, and Valefort's character, Mealir Ostirel.

There are builds (reasonable builds) that are fully dictated by RP, and also make mechanical sense (D&D variety allows that). These builds cannot be used to solo unless in very specific areas which happen to not have enough variety to exploit their weaknesses, but can still contribute to group play pretty much everywhere, provided the player is good enough. There are a lot of these around, but the typical example are Sorcerers with weak spells chosen for flavor (often with reserve feats, to boot), characters with low saves, low AC, low dmg, low HP or a combination of those. SA Rogue/Assassins without UMD are a good example, since their saves can be easily exploited by the AI (even a Duskblade Hobgoblin can kill you with one spell, if it spawns while you just killed his friend, and stealth is on CD. Even when you're in the high epics. Even when you're lvl 30).

There are shit builds, which some players create, and then when given feedback on them they get defensive and claim it's one of the above (usually the reasonable ones). No, it isn't. It's just horribly built, and it has nothing to do with anything else but the player's inability not only to build (and play), but to take constructive feedback on it. When one tries to make minor adjustments without corrupting the RP spirit of the build, in order to make it "reasonable", the player either gratefully accepts the suggestion and moves towards the above categories, or calls everyone a dirty powerbuilder and wallows in the crap he built by taking the moral and RP high ground. I won't enter into example details here, someone might get offended.

So yeah. Snarfy's Rogue cannot visit the Balor. He'd die the moment anything looks his way. Other similar builds tried, and couldn't get there alive even with near 100/100 Hide/MS, my relatively powerful wizard and my entire (very powerful) guild behind them. We not only scraped them from the ground on the way, but also during the boss fight, of course.

[Thorsson]

Changing the nature of the challenges would be such a good idea, as I've pointed out many times before, so that it was harder for 1 build to dominate and easier for others to contribute.

[AlwaysSummer Day]

I have a general query for everyone, and I don't want to start up a new thread, so I'll stick it here:

Is anyone having any issues incorporating all the mechanical changes into their characters pre-existing role-play?

The reason I ask is because I'm curious to know how other players are tailoring their RP to accommodate for things working differently(in some cases drastically so, IE: domains, spells), if at all.

Nothing much has changed for my main character in that regard, but I suspect that one of my alts, specifically my sorcerer(with the changes to Bigbys) will certainly feel it. I suppose I could easily just RcR him and wash my hands of any RP plausibility conundrums, but I wanted to hear how other players were coping with similar issues first. Thoughts?

skill points are no longer covering Maxwells RP concept due to the division of lore. He may have to become a bard just to keep his job : (

Edit: maybe I should just retire him.

[Karond]

skill points are no longer covering Maxwells RP concept due to the division of lore. He may have to become a bard just to keep his job : (

Edit: maybe I should just retire him.

Maybe you've been hit by your own confusion spell

[Darkcloud777]

skill points are no longer covering Maxwells RP concept due to the division of lore. He may have to become a bard just to keep his job : (

Edit: maybe I should just retire him.

Maybe you've been hit by your own confusion spell

NOoooo.....dont sell out on us karnod! not another bard! *sighs and looks at bard builds for Terri* jk!

[Dawrf]

But players have been RCRing the same Character into different Classes / PrCs with changing Abilities for years...so it didn't change much about RP back then...except for many a bunch of groans and eye rolls.

Indeed, so many groans and eye rolls towards the people who were complaining about it in the first place. (Some of which still are.)

Let us look at a Favored Soul for example. Were are not far off if we describe such a character as someone that has been 'picked up by a deity' and granted an innate connection to divine magic. Naturally, such a character should start out as a level one Favored Soul, get that dip in Turn Undead and proceed to dominate the server with Epic Divine Might.

But here comes the aspect of role-playing that muddles up all of the above. A character could choose to reject that innate divine connection. A character could instead go for a mundane strength based non-casting melee build, until a role-play induced change forces them to be reborn. (Quite literally.) Or it might just as well happen the other way around, a Favored Soul grows to become disillusioned with their deity and wholeheartedly rejects them, forcing them to rediscover themselves.

A change that might appear cringe worthy to an outside observer, but probably only because they are not invested in that particular role-play. Not to forget that characters, like real people, might not be so easy to divulge their personal doubts and fears to even people close to them. Much less to strangers.

That Favored Soul example was just an example, something similar could be introduced for any variation of classes, feats, and even ability scores.

And speaking of ability scores especially, I understand someone who thinks that the ability scores should not change themselves. That ability scores should represent a character’s biological peak that was reached prior to their adventuring career.

But the thing is that in NWN2, or with third edition rules in general, a character’s ability scores are no longer set in stone after rolling dice during the character creation. Every fourth level allows you to raise one ability by one, and epic levels with epic feats allow you to change them much more often. The ability scores themselves have become malleable, distanced from the former biological peak and guided towards measuring the extent what any particular ability has been honed into.

Muscle strength will fade if the muscles are not used. You lose your body’s dexterity if you do not actively train to maintain it. A poor diet could destroy your health, your constitution. Sheer laziness can make an intelligent person appear as dumb as boots, not to mention that persisting stress can actually make you dumber and result in a chronic depression. Then any individual could choose to go against the wisdom they have acquired in their lives, and it could be explained by thrill seeking. And finally, people can lose the strength of their will just as well as merely marred appearance could steal away their charisma.

And on the flip side, just as any of these abilities could ‘fade away’, they can also be worked on and reinforced by choice.

Thus I cannot object if someone chooses to reroll their character into something else. They are allowed to do it, and they can easily come up with any in game explanation for it. Not to mention that stock D&D rules allow fallen Paladins to gain additional perks and even convert their Paladin levels into those of the Blackguard PRC. This is the same thing. Only taken a step further, to improve player enjoyment, by allowing player characters to morph according to the needs presented by their role-play.

And yes, not all do it out of role-playing merit. Sometimes people have screwed up character builds that simply need to be changed. Sometimes server changes themselves make builds redundant. (The three by twenty rule, removal of old and adding of new classes, stealth and mob changes, and most recently the whole Dispel fix.) Heck, someone might just be bored with their own character and want to play as something new without tossing away years of influence or in-character connections they have acquired.