Suggestion: Mystic Theurge

[Dawrf]

While limited you can definitely make a Drow C16/W4/MT10 with EDM and Auto-Still 0-6 (you'll only be able to cast 7th level spells). While it may be a pain to remove armor people already do so today, especially gishes that aren't in epics/don't have auto-still yet. Now, that Drow is going to have 6 CON because of the requirements for INT 14 (+3 item to allow 7th level spells), 16 WIS, 21 STR and 21 CON so DEX is left at 10 and CON at 6. However, you will be pretty much immune to everything so CON 6 isn't exactly much of a detriment, (extended) bears brings it to 10 and then you also have false life, gr. heroism and vampiric touch... Again, one race can achieve the required stats so this isn't necessarily a major issue (though UD players may disagree....) Honestly though, even without EDM being considered Divine Power gives you a massive STR bonus and full BAB for 6 mins (extended) and with Strength Domain you can fill level 4 and 5 slots with Extended Divine Power to always have it up. When you throw on FULL Cleric spell casting along with Wizard spells like Shadow Shield, Deez's Repulsive Shadow Barrier, Shield, Mirror Images, Greater Stoneskin, Gr. Heroism, etc. you can make an essentially invulnerable toon so far as buff and bash is concerned.

The class you describe pretty much requires two conditions to be met:
[*]Experience via RCR
[*]Pr-existing items to mule over, especially the two +3 Ability

Because otherwise, it might prove to be somewhat grueling experience to even reach level 2, and then hope that you can get your hands on the special items you require. But hey, perhaps the Underdark has become all sunshine and rainbows since I last played there. As for arcane spells, those can also be breached, so having caster level of 30 is not necessarily a salvation there.

As for Hitpoints of your Cleric 16/Wizard 4/Mystic Theurge 10:
Base: 124
+ 60 from Bear's Endurance: 184
+ 1d10 + 10 from False Life: 199.5~
+ 20 from Greater Heroism: 219.5~
When it comes to Vampiric Touch, does your character have Practiced Spell-caster Wizard?
+ 7d6 (Without) or + 9d6 (With): 244~ or 251~

A typical EDM Favored Soul has 246 with constitution modifier of 10. They can also easily cross-class into UMD and acquire much of the arcane defenses you have listed above via wands. Then they can raise their ability scores even higher than what your build has and have more feats to spare in general.

So where I am standing, the end results are not much different here. Except that I would still be in favor of the EDM Favored Soul. It is much easier to pull one off, and you are not forced to play as a Drow.

Anyhow, were you able to squeeze in Vampiric Feast into that gish build of yours?

[mrm3ntalist]

Hello to being permanently encumbered.

All my casters have 8STR. Many players that i know have 8STR.

Hello penalties to AC.

Penalties to AC? With SS spells AND arcane spells? I think not

Or hello loss of skill points per level,

It has the same skill points as any average DC caster. Actually it has more because of SS

if you choose to make intelligence your dumb stat instead of the other two. But on the bright side, the HP total of 310 (with Bear's Endurance) does allow you to cast few more spell in row.

No I will make an 19CHa, 16WIS,12INT,14CON,10DEX,8STR Aasimar and have no problem at all.

A single class Spirit Shaman with the same starting ability scores would have HP of 390, and a life saving contingency heal. Not to mention more feats to spare, and +2 to spell DC simply for having caster level of 30 before applying blood magic.

What it wouldnt have are lvl9 arcane spells with 39DCs... I think that is alot....

Don't get me wrong, the Sprit Shaman/Sorcerer/Mystic Theurge is interesting. But once again, it is not without its cons.

No CONS for me. That would be my main caster if i was able to make it.

The problem with such PRCs is that they can be very powerful and if MT were t go in, that could limit future content, such as a feat similar to blood magic.

I believe Blood Magic was only added because Charisma based Spirit Shamans were bit rubbish. (They do not even get Eagle's Splendor to boost their own spell DCs.)

While you are true that Mystic Theurge could limit future content, but can you mention a caster class that would be in a similar position with our Spirit Shaman?

Every class. Cleric, druids and what not. I mentioned the DC casters because that is what i like to play. I havent even touched armored casters or just offensive casters that do not rely to buffs to keep them going.

Still, this will be a prc giving progression to both divine and arcane. Everything we introduce (feat, spell etc) would have to be balanced for that PRC, the same way we kind of do now for EDM FS for example.

As I said, even though this is the most balanced MT suggestion i seen so far, it is still too much for BG.

[Dawrf]

Already proven false by chads post you conveniently skipped over. CL30 cleric with 7th level wizard spells is not considered "lagging behind" on any universe, even without EDM. Taking off full plate requires hitting a single hotkey and how annoying it is is irrelevant in a balance discussion anyways.

A very short example:

A single class Wizard:
Level 1: Wizard 1 (Wizard 1)
Level 2: Wizard 2 (Wizard 2)
Level 3: Wizard 3 (Wizard 3)
And so on...

A Wizard/Cleric going for Mystic Theurge:
Level 1: Wizard 1 (Wizard 1)
Level 2: Cleric 1 (Wizard 1, Cleric 1)
Level 3: Wizard 2 (Wizard 2, Cleric 1)
And so on...

Wouldn't you say that the Wizard/Cleric is lagging behind the single class Wizard's spell progression, if not caster level. Of course, it can be mitigated by delaying one of the bases classes for as long as you can, but by level twenty, you are at least three levels behind. It is the three by level twenty rule.

So, what do you know, it is lagging behind in this very universe.

As for removing equipment to cast arcane spells, make that two hot keys, the other is for a shield, hence four clicks in total. There is nothing wrong removing armor when you are in a safe spot, but in the middle of a hostile area when chased by foes? Or when a monster simply spawns next to you?

As I commented on Chad's build. I am sure that it works just fine if you RCR into it. (I've had my own share of equipment related fugue trips.)

Epic areas are rampant with DR mobs, this build won't even compare to a Scythe WS/FB. Even worse against crit immunes because your base hits are awful compared to superior power attack.

And since when those 'farmers' haven't been laughed directly at their in game faces? As for your claim about critical hit immune opponents, it is not quite true. This is where the number of high AB attacks comes into play. That two-handed build will simply hit the opponents more often than your suggested farmer would, and the damage piles up.

It is quite similar thing as with Crossbows and Longbows. Crossbows have the higher damage per shot, but Longbows overtake thanks more hits per round.

You realize this build does less dps while raged then WS/FB does full time right? With rage you'll be critting for nearly HALF... Not to mention neither of your builds has expose weakness so troll harder.

How much less, do throw the numbers. Then let us compare the AC, because glass cannons are also real. As for expose weakness, it really is not needed on this server. But hey, the day they finally fix it, I guess there will be a chance for 100% RCRs too. And with rage, you will be keeping things on the ground as well.

But if you want a build with Expose Weakness... Then perhaps a Strength based Fighter 14/Rogue 16, with also Feint and Shield Bash feats might be more like your cup of tea.

[chad878262]

The class you describe pretty much requires two conditions to be met:
[*]Experience via RCR
[*]Pr-existing items to mule over, especially the two +3 Ability

RCR to 20 and your fine... My understanding is folks often level up on surface and RCR to drow anyway, not always, but not like it is not allowed.

Muling is allowed and +3 items are not exactly rare...you can pick up a wisdom amulet for about 5K... An intelligence armor/robes/ring/hat for anywhere between 15K and 40K depending on who's selling and what slot it occupies. wouldn't be the most difficult thing in the world to obtain, by any means.

As for arcane spells, those can also be breached, so having caster level of 30 is not necessarily a salvation there.

As stated, dispel/breach mobs are reduced and how is this ANY DIFFERENT from a pure arcane caster? This does not classify as a negative to MT more-so than anyone else.

As for Hitpoints of your Cleric 16/Wizard 4/Mystic Theurge 10:
Base: 124
+ 60 from Bear's Endurance: 184
+ 1d10 + 10 from False Life: 199.5~
+ 20 from Greater Heroism: 219.5~
When it comes to Vampiric Touch, does your character have Practiced Spell-caster Wizard?
+ 7d6 (Without) or + 9d6 (With): 244~ or 251~

So what? You have so many buffs you will be invulnerable to pretty much everything.


You can keep pointing to Favored Soul, but that only hurts your argument... Truly 'balanced' classes are nothing to do with FS and any new PRC we introduce specifically considers if a FS can take it to be MORE powerful. Compare it to other classes if you want to present it as balanced. FS, Bard and the like are not classes we are going to build PRC's to mimic in regards to power. When you say "end results aren't much different here" that is a detriment to the argument. If the end result is about the same as a power built FS then it is a VERY EASY no in regards to implementing.

Anyhow, were you able to squeeze in Vampiric Feast into that gish build of yours?

No, but does it need Vampiric Feast? You could do it, if you only wanted still spell 0-3 or if you forego EDM and just use extended divine power. Frankly, that would open up a lot of options since you could dump WIS and just FS16/Sorc4/MT10 and have a 16 CHA, Max STR behemoth... Essentially you gave up EDM and/or EW to gain level 7 wizard buffs... I would call that a fair trade. I can see Calodan's RCR wheels turning as we speak!

[thebeasttt]

And since when those 'farmers' haven't been laughed directly at their in game faces? As for your claim about critical hit immune opponents, it is not quite true. This is where the number of high AB attacks comes into play. That two-handed build will simply hit the opponents more often than your suggested farmer would, and the damage piles up.

That's what expose is for......We're talking about melee builds that compare to the best WM/FB and you aren't even considering expose weakness. Please stop giving smug build advice on subjects you clearly have little understanding.

But if you want a build with Expose Weakness... Then perhaps a Strength based Fighter 14/Rogue 16, with also Feint and Shield Bash feats might be more like your cup of tea.

Please just stop

[Dawrf]

All my casters have 8STR. Many players that i know have 8STR.

And that gets you and them over-encumbered, if you ever get lucky and find that Mithril Full-plate. Oh yeah, you just log out, and wait for server to reset to mule it.

Penalties to AC? With SS spells AND arcane spells? I think not

You are at -1, you can turn it into +1, and though Tortoise Shell adds +4 Natural armor over Spider Skin, you are not casting many arcane spells while wearing armor. So, it is a choice between that lowish Arcanist AC and no arcane spell casting without hotkey tango.

It has the same skill points as any average DC caster. Actually it has more because of SS

With Intelligence ability score of 8: 4*3 + 9 * 3 + 10 * 1 + 10 * 1 = 59 Skill points.

A cleric with intelligence of 10: 2*4 + 29*2 = 66 Skill points.

Unless you claim that the average DC caster also starts with intelligence of 8, instead of little more because they can afford it?

No I will make an 19CHa, 16WIS,12INT,14CON,10DEX,8STR Aasimar and have no problem at all.

My example was my example. You will have 280 hit points, and note that not everyone wants to play as an Aasimar.

What it wouldnt have are lvl9 arcane spells with 39DCs... I think that is alot....

10 (Base) + 9 (Ninth level spell) + 12 (34 Charisma) +1 (Spell casting prodigy) + 1 (Epic Caster Bonus) + 4 (Blood Magic) = 37

That is using your base stats, putting all ability increases to Charisma, and spending all but one epic feat on Great Charisma. So are you going to get Greater Spell Focus feat on something? (The +4 Caster levels from Blood Magic should not add epic caster bonus.)

Anyhow, it is not to say that Bloodmagic could not be limited to only affect Spirit Shaman's spell-book, or that made it so that the feat require 'dedication to spirits' that forbid access to Mystic Theurge.

No CONS for me. That would be my main caster if i was able to make it.

And for someone else the perks granted by PRCs from Bloodmage to Archmage do constitute a con.

Every class. Cleric, druids and what not. I mentioned the DC casters because that is what i like to play. I havent even touched armored casters or just offensive casters that do not rely to buffs to keep them going.

Bloodmagic was added so that Spirit Shamans could be at least somewhat on par with Druid DCs.

Still, this will be a prc giving progression to both divine and arcane. Everything we introduce (feat, spell etc) would have to be balanced for that PRC, the same way we kind of do now for EDM FS for example.

Which is something that can be done, and is already done, with a plethora of other classes.

[Dawrf]

Please just stop

Just try it out.

[Dawrf]

You can keep pointing to Favored Soul, but that only hurts your argument... Truly 'balanced' classes are nothing to do with FS and any new PRC we introduce specifically considers if a FS can take it to be MORE powerful. Compare it to other classes if you want to present it as balanced. FS, Bard and the like are not classes we are going to build PRC's to mimic in regards to power. When you say "end results aren't much different here" that is a detriment to the argument. If the end result is about the same as a power built FS then it is a VERY EASY no in regards to implementing.

When it comes to items, it is all about luck. Who happens to find what, you might very well get those two +3 items in a day. Or it might take weeks, or months.

And as for hurting my argument, you produced a build that you yourself acknowledge requiring both RCR and muling to even pull it off, without pulling off your own hairs. And the end result match that of a typical EDM Favored Soul. While anything with EDM and Favored Soul is a power build by default, a typical EDM Favored Soul is not exactly same thing as a power built Favored Soul. Even though the difference might seem somewhat marginal to some.

As for the statement of not building PRCs to mimic power. It might be true, but the server has history for simply building PRCs for more power. For example dissonant Chord used to have full level 30 Mord until the 'pure' arcanist players rose to protest Thedran being able to Mord and Shovel them. Then both Archmage and Bloodmagus allow quickened level nine spells to be cast, which basically just adds more power to them, along the other similar PRCs.

So at best it is a bit hypocritical stance to take, to say no PRCs that might 'mimic,' but proceed to create PRC that help surpass.

But if you really think that people will rush to play that build of yours... Hey, at least it is more people into the UD!

Edit:

So what? You have so many buffs you will be invulnerable to pretty much everything.

As it stands, any pure 'Arcanist' or 'Priest' is already practically invulnerable to pretty much everything, even without the UMD wands. So what is actually the added invulnerability here?

[chad878262]

+ 1 (Epic Caster Bonus)

huh? Epic Caster DC is +1 / 3 levels... i.e. CL 23, 26, 29, 32, 35 etc... (this is why when the Practiced Caster bug was in effect folks would try to hit CL29 so that PSC would put them at 33 then with certain PRC's they could get to 35)...

So if you are CL 28 you are getting +2 to each, not +1..., CL 30 would give DC +3 epic bonus...

*sigh* suppose I am a hypocrite then, but you still aren't getting this class, not as you have suggested at any rate. Done with this conversation, enjoy your ranting.

[BigJ]

I try not to get drawn into these type of threads, and I can't read through all the walls of text in detail so forgive me if I miss something, but to me melee isn't the issue, buffing isn't the issue . .

Aasimar - 10 Sorc 10 SS 10 MT

^^ That scares me, it really does.

It would have to take practised spellcaster twice to get CL24, which would resist MOST dispels, but the OFFENSIVE spellcasting potential of that build . .

It would NUKE the server.

No problem getting the WIS to cast the lvl 9 spells and still able to MAX CHA for MAX DC's for both spell books. All the other feats taken only once would benefit both spell books (Spell focus, penetration, extend, empower, maximise).

You are effectively combining the same offensive spellcasting as a Lvl 30 arcane class and a lvl 30 divine/nature class into one character.

Twice the amount of spells (well, close too) that could be extended, empowered, maximised on the fly.

PvE wouldn't stand a chance, players will flock to it and they'll be flying around in swarms blasting everything on the server like gods.

A human cleric/wizard would at least have some issues propping up two stats, but an aasimar SS/Sorc, pfft.

BigJ

PS. If a 5/5 ss/sorc then took 10 MT, wouldn't they be a CL19 for both books at lvl 20? You know, just 1 CL lower than a pure sorc or SS, but same DC's? Wouldn't have the high lvl spells yet but who cares when it can pump out lvl 4/5/6/7 from both books.

[Dawrf]

huh? Epic Caster DC is +1 / 3 levels... i.e. CL 23, 26, 29, 32, 35 etc... (this is why when the Practiced Caster bug was in effect folks would try to hit CL29 so that PSC would put them at 33 then with certain PRC's they could get to 35)...

So if you are CL 28 you are getting +2 to each, not +1..., CL 30 would give DC +3 epic bonus...

Blood Magic: Use at will. Your spell gains +4 DC, +4 CL (not subject to DC increase), and you take 3+ (D8 DMG per spell level).

From here: http://bgtscc.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=49036

So technically, that Sorcerer 10/Spirit Shaman 10/Mystic Theurge 10, even though it would be able to cast caster level 28 spells, it should only get the epic caster bonus based on the caster level of 24. If that description is in error, just drop the +4 bonus DC to +3 and update the description accordingly.

but you still aren't getting this class, not as you have suggested at any rate.

As I have already stated earlier, this is not a class I am petitioning for myself. But over the years there has persistent interest towards Cleric/Mage builds, and with the recent dispel fix - it might be possible to add Mystic Theurge onto the server.

Done with this conversation, enjoy your ranting.

I assure you I am not ranting. I just believe that things need to be discussed thoroughly, and that will not happen if people are not willing to disagree and challenge positions.

For example, earlier you suggested lowering Mystic Theurge's spell-casting progression to 7/10. A decision that would have left even split spontaneous spell-caster without their ninth level spells. You did mention the possibility of having 8/10 progression, which would allow ninth level spells to spontaneous spell casters.

But coincidentally, in that same post you also brought up the Eldritch Knight PRC and its 9/10 spell caster progression. It has full BAB progression, which fulfills the 'fighter' part of the Fighter/Mage archetype. As for the sole level that does not provide arcane spell casting progression, it grants the feats Combat Casting and Skill Focus (Concentration) - two feats that make it easier for you to avoid attacks of opportunity via Defensive casting.

Therefore, if Mystic Theurge is to have blank levels in its progression, should those blank levels offer feats instead? Earlier someone suggested that the PRC to grant the Practiced spell-caster feats for free. (Albeit with much lower spell casting progression) It may sound fair to some, but it also means that Mystic Theurge now has two more feats to spend on something else. With that Drow build of yours in mind, it would be free Divine Shield or who knows what else it is currently lacking. Would it still be a nerf?

But the fact remains that the strongest builds are not without their flaws.
[*]The Drow Cleric/Wizard/Mystic Theurge with EDM is a rather specific example with its flaws, and it doesn't surpass a proper power built EDM Favored Soul.
[*]As for whether the Blood Magic feat is deemed too problematic with an even split Spirit Shaman/Sorcerer/Mystic Theurge, then the feat itself could be adjusted not to work with Arcane spells.

I must ask, are there really grounds to lower the spell casting progression based on the above builds? Because a reduction in the spell casting progression will not only affect these 'top builds', it will also affect the less optimal ones. Do you want there to be some leeway for role-play decisions, or do you wish to encourage going solely for the above builds?


----


And as for builds, just thought about a Paladin 4/Sorcerer 16/Mystic Theurge 10, if it has 18 in Wisdom, it will have one cast of Righteous Glory, which is +4 Sacred Bonus on Charisma. No Divine Power, due to Paladin spell book, but technically you would be able to get +8 to Charisma and use it with Divine Shield.

[Dawrf]

I try not to get drawn into these type of threads, and I can't read through all the walls of text in detail so forgive me if I miss something, but to me melee isn't the issue, buffing isn't the issue . .

Aasimar - 10 Sorc 10 SS 10 MT

^^ That scares me, it really does.

It would have to take practised spellcaster twice to get CL24, which would resist MOST dispels, but the OFFENSIVE spellcasting potential of that build . .

It would NUKE the server.

They have increased the damage dice of some of the offensive spells, as seen here: http://bgtscc.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=16494

I am not so sure, because as your character could cast a 24d6 Polar Ray, a regular Sorcerer/Arcane Scholar could cast an Empowered 45d6 Polar Ray, and get 10 levels of Frost Mage to make sure it is not resisted.

Generally, although you can cast greater number of offensive spells, your options to empower and maximize are limited.

And then we could just look at a Warlock 30, with the Eldritch master feat: 14d6*1.5 = 21d6 per Eldritch Blast. Now, couple that with Eldritch Chain that bounces around and with the damage over time from Vitriolic Blast.

Don't get me wrong, the build sounds fun... But I would consider that Warlocks are still the best at nuking the server.

[Dawrf]

After some thought, a Bard/Cleric/Mystic Theurge might be an actual balance concern. Perhaps bigger than the previously discussed Cleric/Wizard/Theurge.

It would be possible to make a Bard 16/Cleric 4/Mystic Theurge 10, Bard 4/Cleric 16/Mystic Theurge 10, or Bard 10/Cleric 10/Mystic Theurge 10,

[*]+ Bards are Armored Casters and with Battle Caster feat they can cast their arcane spells when wearing medium armor.

[*]+ Although their Inspirations will be limited compared a single class Bard, or Bard 26/Fighter 4, they still have access to them in varying degrees. Curse song is still a viable investment.

[*]+ They have access to most of the defensive spells that a Sorcerer would, but as Bards are limited to Sixth level spells. Therefore Charisma of 12 or 13 along with Wisdom of 14 or 16 is enough with access to +3 items for both abilities. Hence you could go for a Strength based build, in addition to the obvious EDM one.

[*]+ Access to spells from defenses to healing, on top of Divine Power.

[*]- No Requiem.

[*]- Fewer arcane spells per day than with sorcerer/wizard.


Thoughts, comments?

[tfunke]

I've always thought a mystic theurge would be cool to play, though I'd understand if it was considered too powerful. A ninja class however... that I'd love to see.

[Lockonnow]

Ninja is a assassin nothing lese or a Shinobi as it means to Horror song