Looking over an edge

[thids]

It's not even the consequences that this is about. I know what I'm doing I know how to deal with problems. What I don't know what to deal with is the people that call me a "Troll, Pvp Baiter, and Power Builder" When all I want to do is give you guys a good show. The conflict I give is what I wish I could do as a Dm. If there is no conflict, what is the point of adventure?

I didn't want to say this, but let me put it simple for you guys.

The Bad guys Will Never Win. We know we will never win, but we make evil guys for you guys to fight. We enjoy the conflict you give us because we choose to pick something we aren't in real life, and that's being evil.

The Zhentarim will never rise to power for long
The Assassins will be Hunted one by one
The Liches will all be slain
Spoiler alert, the good guys win.
We know this and we will continue to be the bad guys because it's fun for us to push you guys that extra step. I just don't understand the ooc hate.

Let's not derail this and keep the focus on kagger here, as he reached out for advice.


There is a setting in place which needs to be preserved to a point, and you are right, in that setting the bad guys will never truly "win". However, pushing that to the limit through RP efforts is a large part of what makes playing evil fun to me. I think your view on things is somewhat skewed. You, as a player of an evil character, are not here to serve the goodies. You are not a side-show attraction in a circus which goodies visit for the weekend and throw rocks at. You do not exist to serve them and their story lines with instant gratification conflict and pvp, that is a privilege they must earn. Your mistake is thinking that they are the center of the story. Do you know when was the last time zhents had an open pvp conflict with anyone? Probably more than half a year ago. Yeah, it's sad to a point and it's certainly boring at times, but in the end such conflict is pointless when it occurs on a regular basis. Instead, I would suggest that you make your character the hero of his story. Think of shit to do, don't focus fully on providing a good show for the good guys. Sure, the conflict with the goodies will be a rarity, but when it actually does happen it will have much more meaning. The DM team is not the same as it was back in 2014. and 2013., and while things are not perfect (when is anything ever perfect?), they are quite accommodating to the bad guys. Think of your characters aspirations, and ways to make them happen in game, then send in a request to the DM team. Playing an open bad guy sometimes feels like a RP exile, and in a sense it is, but I have always believed that it can stop being such if those who want to play the baddies actually put an effort into building roleplay together for the shady part of the server, instead of focusing on providing a good show for team good.


Your character has changed a lot since the first time I met him IC. Back then he was just a half-orc who for some reason kept trying to hug my Thayan Knight I'm sure you will figure out how to proceed best, and kagger will continue to walk around the sword coast providing both laughter and terror to PC's.

[trogers2]

You have a great opportunity to be part of something special on the server, but the DM's run the plots here. you need to understand that.

This,

As long as we all think differently and independently you will always get people who love what you do, and people who hate it - as this thread has shown you, some of us think you are doing a great job (myself included) and I admire your passion to bring some flavour to the table, it makes the server that much more intense. Those people who are telling you all those nasty comments, ignore them - they are either jealous or sore losers who can not stand to lose.

I have RPed with Kagger and he is RPing his toon very well, Manah (my main) is very tame, and Kagger spoke with her normally but because most people are trying to KOS he is going to get into a few fights (and has) it isn't like his going around randomly attacking people out of spite - he isn't.

Because we want to feel like the hero

Hidden: show

Some people just can't handle losing, and it reflects OOCly, but don't let it put you down Kagger because I love what you do.

I do think though that some DM support will go a long way, if you can get a DM who can run player events with you, and come up with some storyline for Kagger I think he would be a great additon, that is the message I think he was trying to get across - the 20 vs 1 is less painful if you have a good DM supporting you. The problem is most DMs are busy, and finding the time to flesh this out is difficult.

I do agree it might be a good idea to 'lay low' for a bit, wait for the server to talk about other things - use this time to come up with a plan; where you want to go with Kagger - what is he trying to do?

Kagger has a lot of tools to his advantage like:
- Disguise system
- Stealth
- Props/messages

[Dagesh]

Hidden: show

I am not suggesting that it's not warranted, or OOC or the result of aggression or any of what you just said. My point in making the statement I did is by using something that's working pretty damn positively in a player's favor isn't a valid point to tell another player to essentially stfu about situations that are *not* working in their favor. Honestly, it's just like telling someone their problems are invalid because other people might have worse problems. It's ineffective, and is not in any way actual "evidence". It's just demeaning a person for having what is to them a very valid issue, and telling them it's not. And no, I'm not going to go digging around the forums, nor do I need to validate myself because I've not posted here, like... ever. That, too... is not the issue at hand.

To answer the question with Kagger's RP, I can only speak from my own personal experience. Evil RP is *difficult*, because of the differences in the way that people view how evil is exactly defined. To me... and mind, this is only me I'm speaking for- there is a difference between being "evil" and just... confrontational, if that makes sense? Confrontational RP just seems thuggish, and in the end, yeah- everyone is going to want to kill you. I won't lie- there were a couple of emotes from Kagger's RP the last time I encountered him that came very close to what I consider "trigger-y"- i.e. things that make me just a tad too uncomfortable as a player. But... hey, I'm just one person. One way I have found that helps, even though it may for some destroy the spontaneity of the RP is asking in /tell if some things are ok to do or not.

Do you mean positively like this?

I found his Rp rather perfect of a Paladin. No anger, No emotion, Just Perfection. Jealous of that since playing a paladin is harder than playing any other class correctly. Rp wise anyways.

[Kagger911]

Hidden: show

You have a great opportunity to be part of something special on the server, but the DM's run the plots here. you need to understand that.

This,

As long as we all think differently and independently you will always get people who love what you do, and people who hate it - as this thread has shown you, some of us think you are doing a great job (myself included) and I admire your passion to bring some flavour to the table, it makes the server that much more intense. Those people who are telling you all those nasty comments, ignore them - they are either jealous or sore losers who can not stand to lose.

I have RPed with Kagger and he is RPing his toon very well, Manah (my main) is very tame, and Kagger spoke with her normally but because most people are trying to KOS he is going to get into a few fights (and has) it isn't like his going around randomly attacking people out of spite - he isn't.

Because we want to feel like the hero

Hidden: show

Some people just can't handle losing, and it reflects OOCly, but don't let it put you down Kagger because I love what you do.

I do think though that some DM support will go a long way, if you can get a DM who can run player events with you, and come up with some storyline for Kagger I think he would be a great additon, that is the message I think he was trying to get across - the 20 vs 1 is less painful if you have a good DM supporting you. The problem is most DMs are busy, and finding the time to flesh this out is difficult.

I do agree it might be a good idea to 'lay low' for a bit, wait for the server to talk about other things - use this time to come up with a plan; where you want to go with Kagger - what is he trying to do?

Kagger has a lot of tools to his advantage like:
- Disguise system
- Stealth
- Props/messages

I have my plan, just that people are giving me ooc flak over something ig. It was annoying but seeing as those of you who actually like it and took the time to write six point paragraphs just to keep me going. That's the simple push I need to do my evil deeds.

[Hidennka]

Popping in my two cents here, I would like to point out that the original intention of the OP was not to open the thread for opportunity to attack other player's roleplay at present. At the end of the day, there is no pleasing everyone. Were people to steamroll over death and wave it off to walk around the next day, eyerolls would be had. The fact that current events are inclusive of various groups and the outcome of such is reliant on others, the fact that there are multiple facets to character death, of which are not known in their entirety, is something that should be celebrated, I feel.

As Thids has said, however, I believe that Kagger was asking for advice or replies for his own RP, not opening the floor to trash the way others choose to handle roleplay consequences. It is uncalled for. I think there have been several good responses in relation to the OP (again, agreeing with a lot that thids mentioned), and I'm glad these have provided some inspiration and motivation for your character, Kagger.

Safe to say, I think the thread has served it's purpose.

[Kagger911]

Popping in my two cents here, I would like to point out that the original intention of the OP was not to open the thread for opportunity to attack other player's roleplay at present. At the end of the day, there is no pleasing everyone. Were people to steamroll over death and wave it off to walk around the next day, eyerolls would be had. The fact that current events are inclusive of various groups and the fact that there are multiple facets to character death, of which are not known in their entirety, is something that should be celebrated, I feel.

As Thids has said, however, I believe that Kagger was asking for advice or replies for his own RP, not opening the floor to trash the way others choose to handle roleplay consequences. It is uncalled for. I think there have been several good responses in relation to the OP, and I'm glad these have provided some inspiration.

Hey, hey whoa. We are adults here. If you take a shot, you get hit with one too. We're mature. I've already made my peace with my point. I don't mind making a thread open to discussion on the entirety of the subject. Most people don't have an outlet for things like this and here is where we need to figure out how people are(Forums). I love going through some of the readings of Hitman and Arkaine because it's just two guys having a great time with their arguments but trying their absolute hardest not to curse each other out when a good points is made, or a stupid one; and I know hitman makes plenty. So by all means, everyone rant away, and Dms. Listen to the People for this may be the most honest thread out there. Just remember guys, don't start a flame war.

[Kagger911]

Uhm... not to stir a pot here or anything, but I'm going to stir a pot- the dead Lathandarite has gotten yet another two week long attention circus out of his IG (second) death. This point, in this argument, is somewhat moot if you ask me.

Heaven forbid a group of players voluntarily contribute some RP over the death of one of the most significant PC's(and classiest players) on the Coast!

It's like a real death. It's supposed to be a moarning, not a "Eh that guy was around for a long time forget about him cause we haven't found his killer"

[Snarfy]

It's like a real death. It's supposed to be a moarning, not a "Eh that guy was around for a long time forget about him cause we haven't found his killer"

Agreed, and that was my point, more or less. Apparently some players, namely Fury, think that RP'ing the death of ones character is nothing more than a cry for attention. Thankfully, most players don't feel the same.

As for Kaggers situation, my humble advice is to keep on doing what you're doing, but stay wary of the "good guys" taking liberties with the scry and the PvP rules. Like flipside43 said, go anon on the scry, and if things get a bit too dicey, lay low. There is something to be said for playing an overtly evil character, and part of the trick is, IMHO, to be cunning about it, and to pick and choose your spots when it comes to confrontation. If you do things by the book then there should be no reason for anyone to complain OOC'ly about what you're doing or how you're RP'ing your character.

[Rhifox]

It's an unfortunate fact that evil players (or even simply 'less good' characters) will get OOC flak. Players are often competitive, and they treat such encounters as a contest to be won instead of as a story to be told. They often expect that the other side isn't simply opposed to them IC, they start expecting the other side to be conspiring to ruin them on an OOC level as well, and look for whatever reasons they can to fuel that paranoia.

While you've already made your mark and so this tip is less useful, I feel it needs to be said: I think all evil players need to try to make every effort to cultivate positive OOC relations with good players and factions, from the very start. (the same should happen from goodies to bad, of course, but evil characters start off with a target on their backs by being in opposition to the heroes so I feel it more important for them). I think efforts should always be made after every RP encounter to thank the other player for their time and roleplay. If your character has done something bad against theirs, then I feel it especially important to remind them that it is just RP, not personal, and that you are just trying to help create some interesting stories for everyone involved. When other players feel you are not out to get them, when they feel you are just an IC enemy, not an OOC enemy, then they are often more willing to engage with you without rancor.

Threads like this are good. Talking about RP is good, asking for tips. These things show people that you care about how they are responding to your RP, and that you are simply trying to provide fun stories for everyone. If some players are still giving you issues, and yet they make no effort to respond to this thread/talk to you about what they feel is wrong about your RP, then frankly they're not worth your time.

Roleplay shouldn't be a contest. Losing and wining should be equally entertaining, because it's all one story.


What can you do from where you are right now? I don't know, honestly. I've not interacted with your character any, so I don't know what you've done or what suggestions I could make. I'd say just keep going and trust your character's decision making, while doing what you can OOCly to try to foster positive OOC relations between you and the other players. There will be some comments, probably, but there always will be and it's hard to avoid upsetting someone. I'd say maybe try avoiding PvP for awhile, since I think PvP is more likely to stew people's dislike as its inherently game-like nature encourages them to think of the conflict as a contest that must be won. Obviously, this is as much determinant on other players giving you the opportunity to avoid it, so it could perhaps be difficult if you're already infamous. In which case the 'laying low' thing suggested earlier is an idea.

[DM Pun Pun]

Please do not flame or bash players or their characters. I think that is a rampant problem we have around the forums these days. If you don't have anything nice to say about someone, why post it?


I think for the most part this thread has attempted to remain civil, and we should keep it that way.


I will comment on the "evil never wins" line. It really depends on the context you are applying it to. Evil does win on this server, as does good. But to some degree, there is no overwhelming victor. The Western Heartlands is always in constant conflict with ideals clashing all the time. If I had to give the land an alignment, it would have to be True Neutral since the scales fluctuate as the days pass.

Perhaps the one thing I could see is that what people perceive as good is vast and what people perceive as evil is quite narrow. Its a common perception that in order to be evil, you have to go around and be a murderer of the Coast. Where I see different types of good characters, I see only a few characters stray from the "murderer" act. There are other ways to be evil. Simply being a glutton or a jealous sort could be considered evil, as those are two of the deadly sins.

On redemption, I always believe redemption takes time. Healing takes time. And you should ally with time if you ever seek that path.



DM Pun-Pun

[NeOmega]

Was any of that any fun?

[RedLancer]

Apparently some players, namely Fury, think that RP'ing the death of ones character is nothing more than a cry for attention.

I am not suggesting that it's not warranted, or OOC or the result of aggression or any of what you just said. My point in making the statement I did is by using something that's working pretty damn positively in a player's favor isn't a valid point to tell another player to essentially stfu about situations that are *not* working in their favor.

It's, like, you gotta read, man.

[Kagger911]

It's like a real death. It's supposed to be a moarning, not a "Eh that guy was around for a long time forget about him cause we haven't found his killer"

Agreed, and that was my point, more or less. Apparently some players, namely Fury, think that RP'ing the death of ones character is nothing more than a cry for attention. Thankfully, most players don't feel the same.

As for Kaggers situation, my humble advice is to keep on doing what you're doing, but stay wary of the "good guys" taking liberties with the scry and the PvP rules. Like flipside43 said, go anon on the scry, and if things get a bit too dicey, lay low. There is something to be said for playing an overtly evil character, and part of the trick is, IMHO, to be cunning about it, and to pick and choose your spots when it comes to confrontation. If you do things by the book then there should be no reason for anyone to complain OOC'ly about what you're doing or how you're RP'ing your character.

"Do things by the book" Oh great I'm gonna be railroading my character.

[Kagger911]

Was any of that any fun?

Being Evil? HELL YEAH! I'd do it all again.

[AlwaysSummer Day]

EDIT: This is not directed at kagger or anyone else. Just general advice based on years on this server.

Some tips for people who want to play evil:

#1 PVP - Take PVP very very very seriously. You might have a level 30 FS or Bard and you might be fighting a level 1 wizard. It doesn't matter. Imagine it is real life. If someone came at me and had a crossbow I would recognize that a single lucky bolt would mean lights out for me. I could very probably die and not ever return. Some argue that they are heroes above and beyond any ordinary people well to that I say . . . you don't know that. At level 1 Elminster was just as vulnerable to a stray crossbow bolt as he is at level 30+. Just because our game mechanics don't allow for this sort of thingdue to health pools does not mean we cannot RP it as possible. So when you play an evil character you must consider that s/he wouldn't make it past their 10th birthday if their gameplan was to kill their parents, siblings, neighbors, the town guards, the rangers in the woods etc etc etc. You have to pick your fights. This does not mean to ambush people at transitions or camp in lowbie areas taunting and goading "goodies" (more often than not neutrals) who you can beat. It means to pick your fights based on meaning. Kill the warrior who has constantly harassed and threatened you for the past 2 months swearing to have you beheaded. Don't kill the paladin who says "hello" and smiles in passing. Your character might not like him and may even want him dead but there is a HUGE difference between that and risking your life for dumb reasons.

#2 Reasoning - Alright so evil can be many things. Maybe your character murders people and dresses up in their intestines while worshipping a false deity. Maybe they simply dislike humans so steal from them regardless of the humans need. See those peasants starving to death? Ya well they don't need that bread. Notice how this character doesn't have any need to fight paladins on a daily basis? They might be frowned upon and chastised but few "heroes" will bother with their likes in such a hostile manner on a daily basis. After all paladins should be following #1 too. Example: An evil fire genasi priest of Kossuth turned pyromaniac. S/he tries to burn down the woods, houses, farmers fields, or anything that will burn regardless if people or animals are inside. These are their daily sacrifices to their god. They try to hide from the druids and guards and do so by offering free healing services.

#3 the numbers - OK so almost everyone who plays evil says everyone else plays good guys. The truth is probably that the vast majority of characters are neutral. These neutral characters tend to fight alongside good much the same reason an accountant would help the police if they are trying to catch someone trying to murder them but not if they were trying to catch a person who smoked a joint in 1976. Example A is in their best interest 99.999% of the time. Option B doesn't concern them in the least.

#4 Evils undoing - Evil has a huge advantage in their willingness to do almost anything to get their way. Murder? Theft? Arson? Torture? Necromancy? Anything is on the table when dealing with an evil character although it always depends on the individual. When dealing with a "goodie" you can expect they aren't going to raise undead or flay a prisoner alive. Neutral characters might but that is another issue. So what is their undoing? What is their Achilles heal and weakness? What is their kryptonite? The answer is simply that they do not play well with others. An evil character can do anything sure, but they can do anything to anyone. This includes friends. Don't like Sauron? No problem sell the deathstars blueprints to captain America. Is kim jong un taking what you perceive to be your treasure? A little poison will take care of him. Evil vs. evil should be as common as good vs evil.

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I could write more but I had a long day at work and need sleep. I enjoyed playing with Kagger on the rare occasion I did. Sadly I did not ever really RP with Zeno.