Paladin Spellcasting

[Akroma666]

Paladin spellcasting changes and restrictions Discussion, continuing discussion.
http://www.bgtscc.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=52970
Suggestion was to shift topic to spellcasting ability modifier off Wisdom to Charisma as per pathfinder and D&D 5e.
This would bump DCs unless we keep the DCs based of wisdom, but more importantly add spell slots allowing a bit more optimization. Any DC discussion will be handled depending on this poll result.
As it stands now, most paladins take 14 Wis which can be bumped to 16 with items allowing 1 additional spell slot for level 1-3 spell levels.
Changing the stat to charisma would alter the spell slot bonuses allowing for around 2 extra spell slots for spell levels 1-4 with a charisma score of 26. For the minimum EDM build of 21 cha with a +3 item it would add 2 spell slots to all levels except 1 for level 4 spells.

[Flasmix]

Is it possible to code it in a manner where they need 14 Wisdom to be able to cast 4th circle spells but allow spellslots to be based off Charisma?

If so, then I am in favour of it. EDM is an exceptionally powerful tool with high requirements. I do not like the idea of making EDM easier to get, so by keeping the Wisdom requirement for casting level, then it's all good. (Yes, technically a Paladin could take 11 wisdom and use a +3 Wisdom item to get access to the spells but that comes with other sacrifices)

[Sir Nathaniel01]

Yes dalelands beyond did it their paladins.

[Steve]

By improving spell casting for a Paladin, is this not making them more of a divine gish?

[Flasmix]

By improving spell casting for a Paladin, is this not making them more of a divine gish?

I would say no, as it's simply adding a few more spells with the highest circle being a whopping 4.

[Steve]

So, one could also call for more Paladin spell bonus items to be added to the RIG or an NPC merchant, and call it a day, no?

[RedLancer]

By improving spell casting for a Paladin, is this not making them more of a divine gish?

No. It's a very small toolbox; this just allows them to use their tools more frequently.

Is it possible to code it in a manner where they need 14 Wisdom to be able to cast 4th circle spells but allow spellslots to be based off Charisma?

Yes dalelands beyond did it their paladins.

I don't think so, actually. I'd need to open the table to check, but I believe that the same stat that governs access to spell levels necessarily governs bonus spells, as well.

So, one could also call for more Paladin spell bonus items to be added to the RIG or an NPC merchant, and call it a day, no?

Itemization is an inefficient bandaid for classes needing adjustment. Further, it's much less time intensive (and far more simple and elegant) to open classes.2da, adjust the casting stat, and move on with life than it is to design a large number of items to span level ranges that address the class's need for more spells/day and also meet their other statistical needs.

[mrm3ntalist]

So, one could also call for more Paladin spell bonus items to be added to the RIG or an NPC merchant, and call it a day, no?

No. There are exploits. Its not fun to see players banned because of stupid things.

[Steve]

So, one could also call for more Paladin spell bonus items to be added to the RIG or an NPC merchant, and call it a day, no?

No. There are exploits. Its not fun to see players banned because of stupid things.

Are you saying then that spells lot items in general lead to Players exploiting, because they need more power for a longer duration?

So as a consequence to this conversation, spells lot items should be removed from the Server?

Cause, it was my understanding that Banning IS THERE for stupid behavior, not that decisions should be made to prevent stupid from being stupid (especially if, as is suggested, being stupid is a choice done players make, not just are).

[Akroma666]

Steve, I honestly can't see a huge power cry for adding 1-2 extra spell slots for the class depending on a different stat. Do you honestly think this will change the class in a dire way that will ruin the playability or alter the classes goal? This is a minor tweak at best.. And if WotC saw the problem and changed it, why can't we?

[Steve]

Steve, I honestly can't see a huge power cry for adding xyz

You are ALWAYS asking for MOAR POWWAZ!

Maybe that is why you cannot see it yourself?

What is being asked, from my perspective, is that the Paladin is made more like a Favored Soul, and thus, more powerful (because a Favored Soul, known to be far more powerful than it should be, especially for BGTSCC where we limit enhancements to +4).

Right now, a Paladin can easily get EDM, which is stellar for combat, albeit, short. A Paladin cannot be a one-man-wrecking-ball, and I think THAT should be the meter by which Classes and PrCs are judged, that no one Class can solo the Server with ease, and pwn the crap out of others in PvP.

So, whenever there is a suggestion of "can this be made stronger/better," it is my inclination to ask: "what is the goal in being asked?" and "how does this just add to the general power creep?"

I paraphrase Karond, and rightly so: "Most requests are made so that a Player that asks them, can directly benefit."

[Steve]

EDIT: I was gonna post that in the old thread but it didn't let me because it got locked while I was writing a reply... I get that you're a mod but it doesn't seem right to lock discussions because people have disagreed with you, even worse if you created the discussion thread.

Exactly.

[Aspect of Sorrow]

So, whenever there is a suggestion of "can this be made stronger/better," it is my inclination to ask: "what is the goal in being asked?" and "how does this just add to the general power creep?"

Well put. For every power increment of one class, two others have received an imbalance against it.

[Akroma666]

I don't play a paladin Steve.. Just have a level 7 alt that is painful bad by comparison.
I merely started a discussion, I'm not mad, or dislike your opinions. I am honestly curious to get both sides of the coin. I don't play paladins.. But I noticed they are rare to find unlike they were 2 years ago before the tweeks. Just trying to give them a little love.

Edit: chambordini, sorry, the thread derailed bad so I created this as a general discussion and locked the thread to send traffic here. Wasn't malicious intent.

[Steve]

Point taken Akroma—I should have asked you if you have played a Paladin to lvl 30 or not, or even, if that matters to you (maybe a majority of Classes on BGTSCC are "late bloomers," but that isn't cause to make them more powerful).

In addition, it may have been or come across better to have asked the Community "who plays a Paladin, and do they feel they are hindered by the mechanics of the Class, when RPing on the Server?"

In my opinion, full level 30 Paladins are not rare because of mechanical weakness, but for other reasons, mainly RP reasons. But THAT is for another discussion.