Paladin Spellcasting

[Akroma666]

What is being asked, from my perspective, is that the Paladin is made more like a Favored Soul, and thus, more powerful (because a Favored Soul, known to be far more powerful than it should be, especially for BGTSCC where we limit enhancements to +4).

Right now, a Paladin can easily get EDM, which is stellar for combat, albeit, short. A Paladin cannot be a one-man-wrecking-ball, and I think THAT should be the meter by which Classes and PrCs are judged, that no one Class can solo the Server with ease, and pwn the crap out of others in PvP.

Now this is a compelling argument! Well put.
So I have a counter question to get you thinking. If its powerful to get EDM as a paladin.. And it should have spellcasting.. Then why on earth would we give it to favored souls making them even more powerful. We all know its the most broken build for our server.. Why is EDM allowed to be available to them, but not a pure paladin with a little Gish bump?

Edit: I think its mechanical.. Maybe that's where our opinions differ so much?

[Steve]

Then why on earth would we give it to favored souls making them even more powerful.

Favored Souls exist, that is undeniable. I'd imagine the general paradigm thinking is to NOT nerf or remove Classes...even though I think the majority of the BGTSCC Community would support removing Favored Souls from the Server. Especially Gray Orc FSs!!

Obviously, the "Remove Favored Souls" discussion is for another thread. But since Paladins DO GET COMPARED to the power output of Favored Souls, yet Paladins are considered rather balanced in principle, it really depends on how one wished to approach the issue.

Based on the previous thread (that got locked), it seems many were calling for Options to spellcasting reliance, of Paladins. Which implies the possibility of having a balanced and fun-to-play non-casting, non-EDM Paladin, that can still rightfully be a Holy Warrior and have Undead Turning and some Divine Feats. Cause right now, if you do go Paladin 30, NOT taking EDM is just a personal choice and should NOT be weighed in on power plus/minus issues.

[Maximvs]

I voted yes. Make everything Charisma related, even DC's and bonus spells and ability to cast. Many of the paladin's powers are not translated well from PnP to NwN, so why not compensate a little bit.

[Flasmix]

Right now, a Paladin can easily get EDM, which is stellar for combat, albeit, short. A Paladin cannot be a one-man-wrecking-ball, and I think THAT should be the meter by which Classes and PrCs are judged, that no one Class can solo the Server with ease, and pwn the crap out of others in PvP.

Every class has a weakness, or better put, every class has at a few different types of builds/classes that can beat them easily. I believe there are three categories which each class would fall into when compared to others for a PvP standpoint.

Strong - Your character has good odds to beat this particular build/class
Even - A fight would be evenly matched
Weak - You will need to have some lucky rolls to win

Would additional spells affect a Paladin PvP wise? Probably not.
Would additional spells affect a Paladin PvM wise? Yes. It will give them a bit more survivability and let them last a bit longer on the field.

The class with the most Strong and Even opponents compared to Weak is probably the favoured soul. Let's say we implement these changes for Paladins to give them a few extra spells. If we take a build of 4 Paladin, 26 Favoured Soul, will additional Paladin spells affect them? There is so little benefit to an extra one or two level 1 Paladin spells it makes almost zero difference.

[Steve]

If we take a build of 4 Paladin, 26 Favoured Soul, will additional Paladin spells affect them? There is so little benefit to an extra one or two level 1 Paladin spells it makes almost zero difference.

But isn't the better question to ask is: how does a Paladin 30 with CHA determining Bonus Spells COMPARE to a Favored Soul 26 / Paladin 4 split?

So again, we're comparing Paladin's to FSs, which we can already say is an OP Class.

Can Paladin's, at this moment, with no changes, effectively be fun to play on BGTSCC (both RP and mechanically, wise)? Who actually has a Paladin 30 now, or has had one, and what is their empirical experience?

Or, is the discussion more along the lines of: A Paladin peter out too quickly, for general RP/adventuring on BGTSCC? Is it no fun to grind on a Paladin? Etc..

Or, do we need M3nt to QC-roll-up a naked Pally and take on the Balor, for this to be really figured out?!?

[RedLancer]

But isn't the better question to ask is: how does a Paladin 30 with CHA determining Bonus Spells COMPARE to a Favored Soul 26 / Paladin 4 split?

This is a false comparison. The purpose isn't to make the paladin competitive with the Favored Soul; it's to improve its playability.

What we should be asking is "Is this class doing what it's supposed to do most of the time?" In a paladin's case, it's not. Too much of the class's output in a dungeon or an event is governed by a need to conserve spells and abilities. By allowing more uses of their spells, you don't increase their power; you extend its duration. This means that a paladin could better sustain its contributions to a party in a given dungeon or event, but you're not raising their ceiling; it's more like raising their floor.

[Flasmix]

Or, is the discussion more along the lines of: A Paladin peter out too quickly, for general RP/adventuring on BGTSCC? Is it no fun to grind on a Paladin? Etc..

I can honestly say that I do not know the reasons why this is being suggested. I do not know if the Paladins I know are single or multi-classed.

The change itself would make it more enjoyable to play as a Paladin from what I can see and impact the server dynamics in a minimal manner.

[Steve]

By allowing more uses of their spells, you don't increase their power; you extend its duration.

What other Class/PrC has +8 Ability Bonuses?

Already, a Paladin can have 3 minutes of +12 STR, +4 CON, +4 CHA. Add onto that 2 minutes of +20 Divine Damage plus other stats.

Like I said, from my perspective, a Paladin at this moment has great(est) power output, but limited in duration. Ergo, balance.

Gee...I'm starting to think I WANT to play a pally now!!

[Steve]

it's to improve its playability.

Not trying to be crass here, but I'd like to know what your definition of playability is. And then, to know what BGTSCC QC Group's definition is. And then, we can compare the situation to actual possibly outcomes, from the discussion.

Because I do think your perspective on increasing duration is valid, mainly because though Extend Spell is available to the Paladin, one cannot extend lvl 4 spells. Maybe that is unfair when compared to the mechanics of...whatever we choose...but hopefully, not to the Favored Soul (which is what I DO think is the unspoken comparison going on, imho).

[Flasmix]

I find there to be more benefits to going multi-class Paladin than pure. Don't take it from me, Take it from Atlas. You may remember his post over here; http://bgtscc.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t= ... 38#p669838

His current character sheet is;


I think Atlas is the longest running Paladin on the server and even he doesn't go pure Paladin because it doesn't hold up. I remember years back when Arkaine was more of the pure Paladin type, he would get stomped on repeatedly.

[Steve]

True. But is that an argument of preference or less-than-viable?

I'd prefer to go Paladin 27 / Cleric 3 myself, or just multiclass in general, to fulfill my own needs to variety. But preference does not equal necessity.

[RedLancer]

Already, a Paladin can have 3 minutes of +12 STR, +4 CON, +4 CHA. Add onto that 2 minutes of +20 Divine Damage plus other stats.

Cause right now, if you do go Paladin 30, NOT taking EDM is just a personal choice and should NOT be weighed in on power plus/minus issues.

Taking EDM is also a personal choice; I agree that EDM is not relevant to this particular consideration. Also, Paladin 30 is not the standard; Paladin 20 maximizes a paladin's available spell slots, and the benefit of this change would manifest as soon as level 14.

Like I said, from my perspective, a Paladin at this moment has great(est) power output, but limited in duration.

I think that honor goes to FSs, Clerics, and Bards, and it's not close.

I'd like to know what your definition of playability is.

1. What is the class's role?
2. Does it perform that role well?
3. Is it fun to play?

Favored Soul (which is what I DO think is the unspoken comparison going on, imho).

I hope not. Trying to meet that standard is a futile exercise.

[Maximvs]

That old Tales of Amn server had every single class given extra epic feats, as reward for not multiclassing. And it made sense. Paladins aren't the only class that isn't that good compared to multi classed toons. It's the case for most.

[Akroma666]

It doesn't mean if you wanted to make a powerful paladin right now you wouldn't be able to.

I dare you.. Good luck. I honestly don't think this is even possible. For PvP you would be stomped into the ground with ant decent build that would be remotely comparable.
For PvE you would still be a 4 minute burnout. Have fun playing the game in 12 minute bursts with only 4 minutes of actual ability to do something.
I honestly think the class as a whole doesn't compare to anything because its too bad to compare. And the prestige route is our option to fix that and that gets rid of spell progression and pulls away from the paladin because we don't have the PRCs to support it.
Mechanically I feel this class was intended to play to 30 like a druid. It just falls short on availability of options. Have a total of 4-5 extra spell slots isn't going to break the class, but rather make it worth playing a 30 purist.

Heck maybe we can get rid of some of these favored souls with the change.

[Atlas]

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