Suggestion: Avernus

[mrm3ntalist]

M3nt, I seriously think you misunderstand here. I, personally, am not asking for the Epic Shop to be EASIER to get to/visit.

There were comments regarding how difficult it is to get to the shop. through Avernus.

What I am suggesting is to place it in a more Neutral context, so that RP has a better overall chance of leading to the visit/overcoming the challenge.

None but a sarcastic remark out of AC81 said we want the Epic Shop placed on Main Street Baldur's Gate.

Instead, do you disagree that a more Neutral Planar location, and/or a location that equally requires RP/Skills as it does mechanical power, to reach?

Its not whether i agre or disagree. If I had to choose i would say that i disagree that it has to be placed to a more neutral place.

I disagree because:
- Not everything has to be neutral. If that was the case we shouldnt have the unique exotic shop in shamath, we shouldnt have any merchants in BG so druids can get there etc. There is no such place as globally neutral.
- It is the best place for UD and surface players to get to. Any other surface area and it would be problematic.
- and personally, I really like how it is implemented.

@Sierante: I went through the area with a character that cannot cast ethereal, by using the boots of Etherealness which are not very rare.

[Kauaiian]

So recommendations 3 and 4 were obviously done in jest (least I hope it was taken that way). #2 i thought would be pretty cool if that could somehow be implemented as you ARE dealing with an infernal merchant. Of course it would backstab/screw you in the end.

But as for #1, I honestly believe, should the merchant remain a devil, there SHOULD be some kind of RP consequence. Unless it's made an OOC thing (kind of like the imp quest where Ive seen many good aligned already doing ). I mean, come on folks, this is supposed to be an RP server. Whether heavy, medium or light RP shouldn't matter. Your PC dealing with a DEVIL cannot be anything but negative.

I'm more of a medium RPer myself, but even I can see the RP risk in something like this. It's why I don't do that imp quest. For me personally, it's compromising. Of course, if you're one of the players that have neutral and evil PC's that can survive the trek, shop, then mule to your good PC (which probably will happen) more power to you, because this doesn't affect you. But I brought the suggestion up in hopes of bringing one perspective to the Staff's attention.

IMO, I think, in the end, a good thing would be to change the merchant to a more neutral NPC.

And to Tfunke, please, PLEASE do not take any of this as slander against your work. Youre a BRILLIANT designer with an eye of the finest. We're all so very appreciative to have someone of your caliber helping to make this server more enjoyable.

As I said, I just wanted to offer a different perspective.

[V'rass]

Unless the items being sold are themselves evil then buying from a devil merchant is not intrinsically evil. The books about sigil show examples of celestials buying goods from devils and slaads buying goods from modrons. As long as the goods are not alignment specific and the trades are done quickly and without any further interaction it is possible for those of extreme alignments to trade with one another. It happens all the time in FR. Assuming Ag ever decides to go to hell he would have no problem buying from the merchant as long as the items were not unholy or were manufactured through evil methods.

[jordanreiss89]

After reading through the whole tread, i do agree with one argument with the shop. Good aligned/Holy characters are at a disadvantage from a role play aspect with the shop owner being a devil or at the very least a tiefling. I think this would be an easy change to be made. There have been a couple good suggestions, my favorite being a powerful wizard.

I have been to Avernus and the experience was awesome. I wouldn't change anything about the journey and I think Tfunke did and amazing job with this one!! So thank you for all your hard work!

[Boddynock]

Nope. It wasn't a joke at all. Your suggestion is nothing more than a blanket penalty against characters that have invested in stealth, which, naturally, puts them at an extreme mechanical disadvantage, and then it forces them to live up to your expectation that everyone entering the zone needs to "fight the mobs". Sorry, but if I need to entertain the notion of suffering the effects your ludicrous expectation(a blanket penalty against sneaks), then you're going to have to entertain suffering my equally ludicrous expectation of a blanket penalty being imposed on everyone else.

Enjoy!

Surely you see the difference between the risk of going there and slogging your way through versus the ability to just, gear up and go with no risk whatsoever...

I am not advocating that it be made more challenging for sneaks, I am advocating that there be the same degree of risk for everyone. What I have heard is that the mobs here are all similarly skilled at detection, and therefore once you pass a certain threshold there is no longer any risk associated with the trip at all. Having a particular spawn that has abnormally high detection skills would put the sneaks in the same boat as everyone else; you have to be really extra careful, or you have to come in a group.

Now I could be wrong, perhaps the spot and listen is already set arbitrarily high and the multiple reports I have heard to the contrary are false... But that doesn't change the fact that some element of danger should be inherent in strolling through hell, whether you can sneak around or not.

I would suggest the mob being used for this is the Bezekira (Hellcat), as they are already spawning and should have scent, which means that if it smells you, it can follow you, and if it gets close enough, it can pinpoint you, even if it has a negative spot and listen.

That is the sort of risk I am advocating for. You're right, a PC that devotes itself to sneaking should be very good at it, but not untouchable.

[Maecius]

We'll probably move the shop someplace else in respect to the outcry.

I want to take a moment to thank Tfunke for being flexible with this. I know it makes more work for you. You don't owe any of us the nice things you make for us; but we are all, I hope, very grateful to you for choosing to continue to donate your time to this server and its players.

[Moridin]

If you move the shop, I would love for it to be moved to someplace UD characters can access it too, or just make a second epic shop with the same items as well.

[chad878262]

I think the majority of folks aren't necessarily indicating the shop needs to be moved, just that the vendor should be more neutral... I think someone suggested the portal takes the party/char to the elemental plane of air? That would be considerably less work, I think.

[matelener]

Pfffff. Evil PCs have been at a disadvantage for a very long time (in terms of access to plots etc). Now, that there's a benefit to their alignment, the public outcry causes the dev to undo it. I'm not a fan of this decision.

Instead of moving the existing merchant elsewhere, simply design another one. The Avernus shop focused mostly on sneak, bluff and perform gear. So, there are plenty of items to be thought of tailored more for the warrior types. I didn't spot any must-have items for barbarians as an example.

In other words, there's still plenty to be done - why do you want devs to waste time shuffling the content around instead of creating more of it?

[chad878262]

simply design another one.

There was nothing simple about the process of getting these items or this merchant in game.

[Akroma666]

Pfffff. Evil PCs have been at a disadvantage for a very long time (in terms of access to plots etc). Now, that there's a benefit to their alignment, the public outcry causes the dev to undo it. I'm not a fan of this decision.

Instead of moving the existing merchant elsewhere, simply design another one. The Avernus shop focused mostly on sneak, bluff and perform gear. So, there are plenty of items to be thought of tailored more for the warrior types. I didn't spot any must-have items for barbarians as an example.

In other words, there's still plenty to be done - why do you want devs to waste time shuffling the content around instead of creating more of it?

^this
Its fine where it is. Goodies don't like it, then get the items from rp trading. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Edit: I would settle for changing the merchant to a wizard.

[AC81]

Geez man, people are getting so twisted up about this! We could just change the vendor to a planar-travelling wizard or something! Would that solve everyone's dramas?

As far as difficulty goes - I was in a group of six yesterday that went through the area. 1 arcane trickster, 1 paladin, 1 favoured soul, 1 dwarf defender and two fighters. Not sure of the other levels but i was a level 24 fighter, so it was hardly a powerbuilt group. I used a stoneskin potion and that's it. If not for a server crash, we would've completed the area. Myself and Lomar (the other fighter) don't use magic and were basically there to use expose weakness. Everyone survived, and did so pretty easily. Pick your group, plan properly, everyone will live. Get a big group, not two or three. If sneakers want to sneak past - good luck, go for it. They invest in stealth why are we trying to stop them from using it. Same with ethereal.

I think everyone needs to relax, enjoy the new content and remember to thank (that awesome Aussie VOLUNTEER) tfunke for yet another great area that we can all utilise!

Edit:
Steve - sorry for my sarcasm earlier ... I find it hard to avoid sometimes.

[Young Werther]

I think everyone needs to relax, enjoy the new content and remember to thank (that awesome Aussie VOLUNTEER) tfunke for yet another great area that we can all utilise!

Yes.

[Ariella]

I think the majority of folks aren't necessarily indicating the shop needs to be moved, just that the vendor should be more neutral... I think someone suggested the portal takes the party/char to the elemental plane of air? That would be considerably less work, I think.

Can't speak for everyone else but this is my opinion here, Just the type of NPC needs to change.

[Kauaiian]

Geez man, people are getting so twisted up about this! We could just change the vendor to a planar-travelling wizard or something! Would that solve everyone's dramas? .

I wouldn't say it's drama (as compared to most of the other dumb ish that gets talked about). Just an inquiry.