Barbarian Improvements

[Ariella]

Why don't you make totem barbarian and tribal barbarian kits? That would surely increase their over all usefulness.

[matelener]

These improvements are really strong but I don't think they will bring much diversity within the class which to me is the most important.

Personally, what I would want barbarians to have is:

- a bonus feat every 5 or 6 barbarian levels - with that barbarians would have some room to wiggle, wether it's to apply for a PRC or to pick up a combat style like dual-wielding, shield feats, charge feats etc.

- Standard Rage vs Whirlwind Frenzy balancing - the latter is better by a lot, Evasion, max +5 AC bonus, 1 attack at highest BAB - it's too hard to pass on these.

Additionally, the rages aren't 'offensive' enough to me, both provide more defensive capabilities. I always linked being in rage with being more destructive. Here's a very fun idea: Standard Rage could provide CON bonus to damage, Whirlwing Frenzy could provide DEX bonus to damage with non-finessable weapons.

- Changes to Extra rage and Extend rage I, II, III, IV - If it was up to me, I'd remove 2 or 3 (or even all) feats from this line and make the Rage duration scale with both character level and barbarian levels (Some PRCs could grant that scaling too: Frienzed Berserker / Battlerager / Bear Warrior / Fist of the Forest etc. , of course with a ratio, i.e. X PRC lvls would be treated as 1 barbarian level)

Here's an example formula:

5 rounds base + CON mod + 1/3*Character Level + 1*Barbarian lvls + 1/3*PRC lvls

lvl 30 barbarian / 24 CON : 5 + 7 + 10 + 30 = 52 rounds, 8 per day = 41.6 minutes

lvl 20 barb / 10 fb / 24 CON : 5 + 7 + 10 + 20 + 3 = 45 rounds, 6 per day = 27 minutes

The scaling with character level part is to remedy the raising with level rest timer. It's a bit absurd when you multiclass a barbarian and your 'rage duration to rest timer' ratio goes down.



In conclusion, I would prefer if you created a wide variety of mechanically viable options instead of giving a birth to a narrow branch of terminator-like builds with huge AC, DR, HP, AB (and pretty much representing a single character concept). Pre-epic feats are, in my opinion, the most decisive part of forming a melee character and freeing up as many feats (eighter by granting them or limiting the number of 'must-have' ones) will bring BGTSCC different from one another barbarians that are healthy power-wise.

[mrm3ntalist]

In conclusion, I would prefer if you created a wide variety of mechanically viable options instead of giving a birth to a narrow branch of terminator-like builds with huge AC, DR, HP, AB (and pretty much representing a single character concept).

What other options you think of?

Like any build, it needs to have AC, AB and Damage. Raising just one too high, gets the other lower. Having everything means that no stat is excellent. The building options are far from narrow other than most builds will get Epic rage because of the low requirements, which i think it is a good thing.

[Eclypticon]

Maybe we should add ghostwise halflings with the improvements?

[AlfarinIcebreaker]

First of all, is this officially going in? And if so, will it go in before 25th (RCR going back to 50%).

Regarding the improvements, any improvement to Barbarian is welcomed. Especially ones which favour big investment in the class. With these improvements, sweet spot is 20 or the whole 30 levels.

Improvements are fine. However, my suggestion would be to play a little with Rage/Whirlwind Frenzy because the class revolves around it. I'd try to improve plain Rage because right now everyone takes WF. Suggestion : give extra attack per round to Rage as well.

[ragnarok1983]

Maybe we should add ghostwise halflings with the improvements?

I would LOVE this... For totally not-bias reasons at all. *coughs*

[chad878262]

First of all, is this officially going in? And if so, will it go in before 25th (RCR going back to 50%).

Regarding the improvements, any improvement to Barbarian is welcomed. Especially ones which favour big investment in the class. With these improvements, sweet spot is 20 or the whole 30 levels.

Improvements are fine. However, my suggestion would be to play a little with Rage/Whirlwind Frenzy because the class revolves around it. I'd try to improve plain Rage because right now everyone takes WF. Suggestion : give extra attack per round to Rage as well.

This was approved by QC and submitted to dev to implement. (doesn't mean there is any specific date of when it is going in, but unless admin/DM/dev team bring up some issue it is going in at some point.) This also means additional changes would be something we would need to broach at a later date. I would not be opposed to making some adjustment to vanilla rage as I agree with your statement. There is the benefit of epic rage essentially adding an additional 5 rounds to the duration for vanilla since you gain the big +10 CON. However, I would agree that doesn't supplant the +1 attack for whirlwind alongside the other great benefits when Strength gets the same bump regardless. Might be neat for whirlwind to be aimed more toward DEX based / TWF style barbarians while standard remains STR/CON based. Don't know, I'd be interested in hearing idea's, but honestly I think once this goes in we should focus on some other classes that need love before revisiting Barbarian any further.

[Akroma666]

Is there a point to epic rage for bear warrior?

[chad878262]

Is there a point to epic rage for bear warrior?

short answer is no, since bear warrior shape replaces Rage your level 10 dire bear is essentially your epic rage...

[Slade]

Why don't you make totem barbarian and tribal barbarian kits? That would surely increase their over all usefulness.

I'd like to see something along these lines, too. Give bonus feats every 4 or 5 barbarian levels that can only be used on special feats that customize the bonuses from rage.

- Changes to Extra rage and Extend rage I, II, III, IV - If it was up to me, I'd remove 2 or 3 (or even all) feats from this line and make the Rage duration scale with both character level and barbarian levels (Some PRCs could grant that scaling too: Frienzed Berserker / Battlerager / Bear Warrior / Fist of the Forest etc. , of course with a ratio, i.e. X PRC lvls would be treated as 1 barbarian level).

While I like the idea of rage duration scaling with level, the partial level advancement would be really unfair to bear warriors. Bear form, unlike frenzy or the FoF stance, shares its timer and uses/day with the barbarian class rage. Bear form is very powerful, but it comes with the severe penalty of not being able to use your inventory or any combat abilities other than charge and knockdown, so I think it's pretty well balanced against standard rage and doesn't need any nerfing. (Plus it bugs out on 1-in-5 uses and strips off all your armor bonuses.)

[Akroma666]

Is there a point to epic rage for bear warrior?

short answer is no, since bear warrior shape replaces Rage your level 10 dire bear is essentially your epic rage...

Booooo!!!!

[chad878262]

Is there a point to epic rage for bear warrior?

short answer is no, since bear warrior shape replaces Rage your level 10 dire bear is essentially your epic rage...

Booooo!!!!

I wouldn't be opposed to some kind of future discussion on Thundering and or epic rage having some kind of bump to Dire Bear form, just letting you know how it works 'today' does not benefit them. Would be a very interesting way to give bear warrior a little extra 'juice', but I would say that fixing the bugs with that class would be higher priority.

[Kiran]

Not an expert but I like seeing there are discussions and improvements on those poor melee classes out there, tried going from fvs just to test pure melee...

Never again!

...Dont nerf FVS btw..!

Ignore all.

[Akroma666]

... but I would say that fixing the bugs with that class would be higher priority.

Omg this x1,000,000

[AlwaysSummer Day]

This reminds me that y'all might want to look into buffing battle rager. One of the major features from tabletop is an extra attack during grapples. That doesn't translate so was dropped here. Also it doesn't get its intimidate bonus because the penelty counteracts it.