Shadow jump question

[Blackman D]

well again, given SD is a defensive PrC, of course assassin would be better for anyone that wants hips and damage

can people do a damage build and get epic dodge? of course, they simply have to spend feats on it instead of getting all of the prereqs for free

there will likely be some user friendly adjustments made to SD but none that will alter its play style, and as far as ki step and shadow jump go, its hard to say, nothing wrong with making it instant but its probably not gonna get too short of a cooldown

[matelener]

Eh? A bad build? Have you even tried it? What does epic presicion ahs to do with this??? This is a high DEX(25-26), Medium INT (16-18) that deals damage not related to the SA attacks. Its a killer build with a lot of attacks, High AC and Epic dodge.

As for your suggested build, i think you are confused. This is a kama build not a unarmed one

Epic Precision is a typo, I meant Epic Prowess. Pretty easy to assume when I listed all of the feats your build (without sneak dice) has to take. And no, I'm not confused, I understood that it is a kama build and I posted an improved version of it in return: 12 monk / 8 fighter / 5 SD / 5 SB, with fewer SD levels, also wielding two kamas.

Huge damage output? I think you are ambitious. If you dont plan to use SAs, which is pretty viable with an xbow build, then assassin brings absolutely nothing to the table. Epic dodge on the other hand will help when in tight places AND against ranged attacks.

Personally, Molags build is the best all around xbow build i played.

Matter of playstyle preference, nothing relevant/objective will come out of discussing it.

I beg to differ about it. You play a sneak build. Try it without epic dodge and let me know how it goes. Even if it is a build with speed increase ( which combined with epic dodge is what makes this build so able to avoid hits ) it will hit a lot, especially against mobs such as the frost giants.

The utility of Epic Dodge can be measured. It's around +5 AC against a single enemy that is not dual wielding and doesn't have Multiattack feat. Otherwise, it's less. But that is not what I was refering to. We were discussing the state of the Shadowdancer class - which I view as inferior above level 3 when compared to what's available (With the exception of monk builds that can make use of SD 5). In a simplier term: Epic Dodge is fine, shadowdancer past 5 isn't.

[mrm3ntalist]

Epic Precision is a typo, I meant Epic Prowess. Pretty easy to assume when I listed all of the feats your build (without sneak dice) has to take. And no, I'm not confused, I understood that it is a kama build and I posted an improved version of it in return: 12 monk / 8 fighter / 5 SD / 5 SB, with fewer SD levels, also wielding two kamas.

How is that build better? You lose the 26BAB which is what that build aims for, you lose damage and AB. What is it you gain here? The reason why Monk9/SD5 wont work is because it misses the 26BAB by one.

Huge damage output? I think you are ambitious. If you dont plan to use SAs, which is pretty viable with an xbow build, then assassin brings absolutely nothing to the table. Epic dodge on the other hand will help when in tight places AND against ranged attacks.

Personally, Molags build is the best all around xbow build i played.

Matter of playstyle preference, nothing relevant/objective will come out of discussing it.

Ye, most builds are.

I beg to differ about it. You play a sneak build. Try it without epic dodge and let me know how it goes. Even if it is a build with speed increase ( which combined with epic dodge is what makes this build so able to avoid hits ) it will hit a lot, especially against mobs such as the frost giants.

The utility of Epic Dodge can be measured. It's around +5 AC against a single enemy that is not dual wielding and doesn't have Multiattack feat. Otherwise, it's less. But that is not what I was refering to.

Saying it is +5AC is a very cheap way to calculate it. Its a bonus to AC that is given when it is needed most, ie when you get hit. That takes 20s into the mix.

We were discussing the state of the Shadowdancer class - which I view as inferior above level 3 when compared to what's available (With the exception of monk builds that can make use of SD 5). In a simplier term: Epic Dodge is fine, shadowdancer past 5 isn't.

Its more common to go for SD3 yes. That doesnt mean that for builds going the full way on SD it doesnt worth it...

That is the same with many other classes. A very popular example is rogue. For most builds a lvl3 dip is what is needed. However, for other builds going up to r16 worths it as well.

Like you said before, it is relative.

For me SD10 is perfectly fine.

[Mallore]

well again, given SD is a defensive PrC, of course assassin would be better for anyone that wants hips and damage

can people do a damage build and get epic dodge? of course, they simply have to spend feats on it instead of getting all of the prereqs for free

there will likely be some user friendly adjustments made to SD but none that will alter its play style, and as far as ki step and shadow jump go, its hard to say, nothing wrong with making it instant but its probably not gonna get too short of a cooldown

I know this conversation is well down the road. Though when you all get to it. I would like to know the reasoning behind the cool down anyways. What sort of OP thing does it prevent.

It doesn't buff. It doesn't negate. It simple allows you toin placement at a limited capacity. .


Only reason I can see from my limited knowledge on mechanics on the server is that some people just hate the idea of a blinking around toon. Which doesn't sound mechanical at all



After all this ability can give a major fun boost to the mechanics of how the class operates in the pve environment. A boost in theme with the class. A boost that matches the class rp. A boost that brings it in line with the pnp version. And most of all a boost to the power of where it sits in progression and investment.

[chad878262]

Suffice to say there were a few game breaking exploits when there was no cooldown.

Related to Epic Dodge, have you ever tried hit and run tactics? When you strike out of stealth, immediately run away to restealth once the cooldown ends you can effectively kill enemies with no risk (aside from maybe casters, if you don't kill them in the first flurry, but as a stealthier, you should pick your targets better!) Simply put, Epic Dodge + HiPS can make it nearly impossible for a melee enemy to touch you.

Now, regards to SD 10 being 'worth it' or not... What about Frenzied Berserker as an example? What is the point of taking it past 5? There are many PRC's and even base classes that offer a lot more on the front end of the levels (Paladin 4 FTW!) so what makes SD special? It gains solid defensive abilities that mix well with both SA and non-SA builds. As stated previously there is a discussion because there are a couple minor tweaks that could improve the play of the class, but that doesn't mean it is somehow a crap PRC... Just as FB is not a crap PRC, it simply is not optimized to take more than 5 levels. If you want to Powerbuild go SD 3 (or 5 for certain builds), if not, and the RP calls for 10 levels of SD (or FB) go for it! you won't suddenly go from viable to insta-death in areas below your CR, after all...

[matelener]

How is that build better? You lose the 26BAB which is what that build aims for, you lose damage and AB. What is it you gain here? The reason why Monk9/SD5 wont work is because it misses the 26BAB by one.

You lose 1 AB and 2 dmg. (took into account: Flurry difference, Weapon Supremacy, BAB )

You gain +2 AC, +1 fort/will, +30% movement speed, immunity to poison and minor things like Improved Knockdown / Wholeness of body. But most importantly, you get another high BAB attack from Greater Flurry.

25 BAB and Greater Flurry:

MH: +25/+25/+25/+20/+15/+10/+5/+27 OH: +25/+20/+15/+10/+5/+0/-5

26 BAB and level 3 flurry:

MH: +24/+24/+19/+14/+9/+4/-1/+28 OH: +24/+19/+14/+9/+4/-1/-6

Now, regards to SD 10 being 'worth it' or not... What about Frenzied Berserker as an example? What is the point of taking it past 5? There are many PRC's and even base classes that offer a lot more on the front end of the levels (Paladin 4 FTW!) so what makes SD special?

It doesn't make SD special. This thread was opened and I weighted in with my suggestion. I advocate for all PRCs to progress from level 1 to level 10, be it Shadowdancer or Frienzed Berserker or Weapon Master (or base classes). I don't suggest to make 10 levels of a PRC the best possible route to take, I suggest to make it 'comparable in power' with options on the table and yet unique - which leads to a wider variety.

[chad878262]

It doesn't make SD special. This thread was opened and I weighted in with my suggestion. I advocate for all PRCs to progress from level 1 to level 10, be it Shadowdancer or Frienzed Berserker or Weapon Master (or base classes). I don't suggest to make 10 levels of a PRC the best possible route to take, I suggest to make it 'comparable in power' with options on the table and yet unique - which leads to a wider variety.

Fair enough... Hopefully the things we come up with will be something you appreciate. I advocate for increasing the duration of Shadow Evade as the bonuses are decent, but too short lived (even with server increase) to be of real benefit. My thought was to make duration 1 rnd/ SD level + DEX modifier which would reward those who go 10 levels and really focus on DEX (you could theoretically have +12 DEX modifier, after all which would give 3 uses at 2 minutes and 12 seconds each, but +9 or 10 DEX bonus is very attainable even on a race without DEX bonus). In addition I think the summon getting beefed up would be a welcome power bump.

[Deathgrowl]

As someone who plays SD10, I can say it is definitely subpar as far as PRCs go. It's not terrible, though, but all the good stuff comes at levels 1, 2 and 5. Sure, improved evasion at level 10 is nice, but in practically all cases where you would also have 25 dex (for epic dodge), you would have access to improved evasion from other classes, making you stop at SD5 anyways. There's no good reasons to go beyond that.

Except shadow jump, which is now point and click. A bit underwhelming in a lot of cases, though, but at least it is fun.

But power wise, it is really subpar for the full 10 levels.

[mrm3ntalist]

How is that build better? You lose the 26BAB which is what that build aims for, you lose damage and AB. What is it you gain here? The reason why Monk9/SD5 wont work is because it misses the 26BAB by one.

You lose 1 AB and 2 dmg. (took into account: Flurry difference, Weapon Supremacy, BAB )

How do you reach 1AB and 2damage? monk11/SD5/SB5 is 21 levels. Even if you go F8 for the next levels you get +2damage (weapon Spec) and +4AB (Weapon focus, GReater and Epic)

Monk3/F12/SD10/SB5 gets you all the fighter feats. Mastery slashing covers the loss of the monk bonus to the flurry while the extra BAB gives +1AB compared to the monk11/SD5 combo, while you gain +6 damage to ALL the attacks of the flurry.

While the monk11/SD5 gets two more AC you can get a defensive feat at F10 so the loss of AC is just 1

You gain +2 AC, +1 fort/will, +30% movement speed, immunity to poison and minor things like Improved Knockdown / Wholeness of body. But most importantly, you get another high BAB attack from Greater Flurry.

25 BAB and Greater Flurry:

MH: +25/+25/+25/+20/+15/+10/+5/+27 OH: +25/+20/+15/+10/+5/+0/-5

26 BAB and level 3 flurry:

MH: +24/+24/+19/+14/+9/+4/-1/+28 OH: +24/+19/+14/+9/+4/-1/-6

I think your AB calculations are off as explained above. The 26BAB should have higher AB than the 25BAB. The Mastery slashing should cover the 2ab loss from the flurry and then you gain the extra BAB.

The 1extra AC(not two) is not such a big issue when epic dodge ( and hips ) are concerned. The big loss is the extra speed the monk3 loses and depending the build the one high AB (not BAB) attack.

[mrm3ntalist]

As someone who plays SD10, I can say it is definitely subpar as far as PRCs go. It's not terrible, though, but all the good stuff comes at levels 1, 2 and 5. Sure, improved evasion at level 10 is nice, but in practically all cases where you would also have 25 dex (for epic dodge), you would have access to improved evasion from other classes, making you stop at SD5 anyways. There's no good reasons to go beyond that.

Except shadow jump, which is now point and click. A bit underwhelming in a lot of cases, though, but at least it is fun.

But power wise, it is really subpar for the full 10 levels.

You play an SA Char with SD. Of course assassin would be more powerful.

If you played a character with no SA dice ( fighter,SB etc ) would you say the same? For example instead of rogue20/SD10 if you played SB20/SD10, isnt SD more powerful?

[chad878262]

Depends if you value 5d6 death attack from assassin, chance at paralysis, and minor spell book more or getting evasion/EW and epic dodge. But I think the point is in either case both builds gain some strong things at the expense of others so it's a good example...point stands that SB 25/ SD5 gets more than SB20/SD10, while assassin really demands at least 9 levels and even 10 still gives additional benefit (additional casting of improved invisibility and 1 more dc on death attack).

But I think we are way if topic from shadow jump at this point...

[Mallore]

I wanted to stay very focus, on a single ability, that was not matching its PNP equal, and wanted to address its use for its investment, as this is essentially a level 18 ability. Equivalent to 9th level spells, and some near epic feats.

But.. i will answer this as best as i can.

Suffice to say there were a few game breaking exploits when there was no cooldown.

Related to Epic Dodge, have you ever tried hit and run tactics? When you strike out of stealth, immediately run away to restealth once the cooldown ends you can effectively kill enemies with no risk (aside from maybe casters, if you don't kill them in the first flurry, but as a stealthier, you should pick your targets better!) Simply put, Epic Dodge + HiPS can make it nearly impossible for a melee enemy to touch you.

While I believe you that there a "few" game breaking exploits, are these exploits still relevant now? Or have they been dealt with in other ways?

Your above example, is how the abilities where meant to interact in PnP. Infact that is what makes the Shadow Dancer a scary thing in Dungeons and Dragons Lore, and in Cannon. The idea is that a shadow dancer can leap out of a shadow, hit you, then leap back and vanish before you can act is the way its suppose to be in PnP. This is why feats like mobility are in the game.

While I hate the idea this exists... I have a few feelings regarding it now I give it thought.

Do I think this is unfair? Well, the class with this ability can get Finger of Death easier then many other class out there, instant killed. This class can get knocked down easier then almost any other class in the game, Instant killed. If you attempt the above and play poorly, you will fail and die. If the server lags, you fail and die. Also have to remember you can roll a one on Hide/Ms and just are buggered in many cases to.

Do I really want to play like this? Not really, but this sounds like a way for a class to go in and solo a boss. This is no different then most other epic level characters who can over buff and solo a boss anyways. All this is, is another way to play. This sounds like it will take a god aweful amount of time to do, unlike other power classes that will just nail and destroy things quicker, with less error chance. This ability also assumes you can hit and hurt the boss to..

In part this sounds like a PVP monster, suddenly maybe the FS is not at the top of the tree, or some other classes? Is this a bad thing? I mean, nerfing is bad, bringing other groups up is better for the game. Enter some new builds and wider variety?

What this does sound like, is there is a way to play that some people just do not like? Maybe it is some people will be jealous, or feel overshadowed? But these are purely emotional connections and not mechanical. And most of all they are not RP.


We are talking about an ability that adds to a class. We are talking about adding an ability to make more dynamic adventure pve play. I believe this far out weighs the current negative feelings on another style of play, that is on scale with the way things are currently on the server.

Now, regards to SD 10 being 'worth it' or not... What about Frenzied Berserker as an example? What is the point of taking it past 5? There are many PRC's and even base classes that offer a lot more on the front end of the levels (Paladin 4 FTW!) so what makes SD special? It gains solid defensive abilities that mix well with both SA and non-SA builds. As stated previously there is a discussion because there are a couple minor tweaks that could improve the play of the class, but that doesn't mean it is somehow a crap PRC... Just as FB is not a crap PRC, it simply is not optimized to take more than 5 levels. If you want to Powerbuild go SD 3 (or 5 for certain builds), if not, and the RP calls for 10 levels of SD (or FB) go for it! you won't suddenly go from viable to insta-death in areas below your CR, after all...

I do not want to get into this as its way off topic, also I do not think its a crap PRC, whom ever feels that is probably not worth arguing with at the moment. However SD requires more then Frenzied Berserker, and really paladin 4, is Level 4, that can not be compared to level 18 abilities. Is this ability in line with other abilities on the server?

Mind you I think the class is a bit empty in the middle, and Ive expressed to you in the past what I think might make it cool, with out adding non flavor. (and yes im still against SA dice)

The focus is the cool down of a class ability that is exceedingly long and against flavor. I could not imagine seeing five minute cool down on all spells above level 5, just because they could be spammed... It may sound silly what I just stated but the Shadow Jump is the flavor of the class, while people think Hips is, thats just the best mechanic.

I would even enjoy a 30 second cool down, as by the time the cool down has refreshed you can use it on the next mob. My problem though still lays with Transitions, when you hit a transition the CD breaks to 5 hours. Yes you can go through your abilities and use it there, but the ability is suppose to be tied to your hot bar so you can press it for your defensive escape if a mob goes badly. After all this is a defensive class.

I suppose I leave it with this. It was once argued to me, it is better to add more things to the game then to take away. Prime reason why some people didnt want to nerf or take away the Favored Soul, its just better to add more classes and abilities in. This ability properly CD'ed will add more flavor to builds, increase PVE, perhaps causes some interesting PVP and maybe shrink some of the power gap people feel.

Personally... I just want to jump a bunch of times in a dungeon so I can get sneak attacks, kinda like the way its suppose to work, exactly like it was intended and is in PnP. Its just fun!!! Dont be haters!

[Deathgrowl]

You're making faulty comparisons. You have to compare SD with alternatives to SD, not with alternatives to the complementary base classes. Sure, SD10 would be good with swashbuckler20 (no actually, not very... What would be the point? 25 dex on a swashbuckler20 leaves very little damage), but wouldn't for instance a swash20/assassin10 be a better choice? Or rogue3/swash19/assassin8 for evasion? Sure, you wouldn't have epic dodge, but you'd have hips anyways, and far - far - better damage. Are you saying shadow evade and epic dodge make up for that massive difference in damage (not to mention the added paralyse DC), given that both these variants also have the best defensive mechanic in the game, namely hips?

Honestly, I'm not advocating for adding any sneak dice or anything to SD, by the way. I'm just happy shadow jump is now point and click! It would be nice to see a liiiiiiiiiiiittle buff to the shadow, though. As a level 20 undead, it has 10 bab, and it doesn't have a lot of strength, so it barely ever hits and it does basically negligible damage when it does... And it's not good at defense either, so you can't really use it as any kind of tank.

[matelener]

How do you reach 1AB and 2damage? monk11/SD5/SB5 is 21 levels. Even if you go F8 for the next levels you get +2damage (weapon Spec) and +4AB (Weapon focus, GReater and Epic)

Monk3/F12/SD10/SB5 gets you all the fighter feats. Mastery slashing covers the loss of the monk bonus to the flurry while the extra BAB gives +1AB compared to the monk11/SD5 combo, while you gain +6 damage to ALL the attacks of the flurry.

While the monk11/SD5 gets two more AC you can get a defensive feat at F10 so the loss of AC is just 1

Okay, let me go back to square one.

With your build you have to squeeze in these epic feats:

-Epic Prowess
-Expose Weakness
-Combat Insight
-Perfect Two Weapon Fighting (after 25 DEX)
-Epic Dodge (after 25 DEX and on/after 10th SD)
-Epic Weapon Focus: Kama
-Melee Weapon Mastery: Slashing (I made a typo earlier when I named it "Weapon Supremacy")

That's 7 epic feats. 5 from epic levels, two from Fighter 10 and Fighter 12.

There is no space for Greater Weapon Specialization and Epic Weapon Specialization because these require the 12th fighter level and would have to be taken into epics (which you cannot). So, you gain only +4 damage (Weapon Spec and Slashing Mastery) and not +8 damage as a fighter with all the damage feats would.

Your fighter bonus damage is Weapon Spec and Slashing Mastery.
Mine is only Weapon spec.

As for the Attack Bonus:

You get:
+2 from Melee Weapon Mastery: Slashing
+1 from BAB (Your BAB is 26, mine is 25)
-2 from flurry (Your flurry is -2 AB to all attacks, mine is +0)

Total: +1 AB and +2 damage.

[Mallore]

It would be nice to see a liiiiiiiiiiiittle buff to the shadow, though. As a level 20 undead, it has 10 bab, and it doesn't have a lot of strength, so it barely ever hits and it does basically negligible damage when it does... And it's not good at defense either, so you can't really use it as any kind of tank.

Does the shadow only have power equal to your SD levels, or all levels?

I love my little shadow though he kinda gets stomped and isnt very good at making anything flat footed. But hes cute. Jane, named hers George.