Suggestion Weapon Master

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Calodan
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Suggestion Weapon Master

Unread post by Calodan »

Okay so I know that I am a lover of WM. Not to be confused with......
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SM
:lol:

What I suggest is that since it is already a feat intensive build is that we add 3 levels bringing it up a full 10 level PRC and the 10th level grants the ability to Critically attack non-crit monsters for 1/2 damage of the full crit attack. Something that pretty much makes this mostly useless class even more useless on this server is the incredible amount of monsters with crit immune.

Also WM was a great combo to throw in a 3 level dip of a prc here and there but many builds do not use it since well you are effectively giving up 7 levels of power in the epics when fighting anything with crit immune. So vs undead a level 30 is now a level 23.

Now I know the argument for magic users who would then take this PRC but remember we fixed dispel so those GISH casters are not as powerful now since you can just nuke em with any mords or hit em with a great dispel and likely strip some power from them. By adding 3 levels to take get that crit ability you also further lower any gish's caster level. Thus making them think even harder about taking another dip of something that does not grant caster levels. Plus I can not think of a more feat intensive class PRC in the game right now than WM. You have really sacrifice some things to get it and to get it early you pretty much have to be a pure fighter. Most GISH builds won't see that 10th level WM until mid epic levels. So for example a 20FvS/10WM could only reach 24CL if they only do that class. Any further dips would degrade it further and most people would only take another 4 levels max leaving with full caster progression but only 20CL which means with the dispel caps the way they are any Tom, (person), Jane and Jill could strip them with a G.Dispel.

I think this could improve melee a bit and would not be overly taken by gish builds since it has so many feats in conjunction with the 10 level progression that severely hampers CL.
Kory Sentinel
"We should take the army head on!"

"... it sounds like a terrible idea, but look at that smile."
"And he just sounds so confident ... he is a favored soul."
"Even if we don't survive, he will, and isn't that what matters?" -Red Lancer
chad878262
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Re: Suggestion Weapon Master

Unread post by chad878262 »

I wouldn't be for this unless we made it impossible to take WM and FB together. Supreme PA critical is DEVASTATING and even at 1/2 damage crits they'd become insanely powerful... Simply put this class has a similar disadvantage to Rogue, but while rogue can get 1/2 damage through selection of a feat they also have WAY more downsides to a WM build (less staying power such as lower AC and HP, lower BAB and generally less base damage, making the SA required to do any damage at all against DR enemies). WM builds generally have the option of using a shield or going two handed for more AC or more damage, while SA reliant builds generally don't have any option for doing more damage (simple/rogue weapon proficiency in many cases alongside DEX built for PTWF making STR for damage not an option).

Basically this would take away one of the few disadvantages WM builds have, and when mixed with FB it would make them the best damage dealers on the server. Imagine a 32 STR F/WM/FB with a scimitar using Supreme Power Attack... Even at half damage he would slay...now add a FS, Cleric, Wiz or Sorc buddy to buff him up (or a bunch of wands). It would be OP for our server IMO... Heck even with just IPA turned on he could land some serious crits.

Again, not saying this isn't something to consider, but I think it would require a serious look at feats/classes to balance it (such as making it a 'mode' so it can't be used in conjunction with PA feats...so the character could 'turn on 1/2 crit to crit immune' but that would mean turning off PA/IPA/SPA).
Chord Silverstrings - Bard and OSR Squire / Tarent Nefzen - Arcane Wand Merchant and Master Alchemist / Irrace Arkentlar - Drow Adventurer / Finneaus Du'Veil - Gem Merchant and Executive Officer of SCCE

Tarent's Wands and Elixirs

A Wand Crafter's guide to using wands
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Calodan
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Re: Suggestion Weapon Master

Unread post by Calodan »

I am all for banning the FB/WM combo many servers already have. The thought process being FB are Chaotic and WMs are Lawful. The two can not coexist on the fact that a barbarian does not really practice precision but instead pure brute strength. Where a WM is a precision fighter. They work countless hours to hone their skill. While we are at it can we bring back Elemental Warrior? The elemental damages that are granted for that do not critical attack.

///Spoiler is conversation not needed to the suggestion.
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I disagree though that WM is a powerful class needing to be toned down at all. In fact it is a pure flavor class unless you are a FB/WM with a greatsword........Which by the way my calculations for each critical hit on one of those is around 150 damage........That would only be 75 damage to undead and considering a FvS or Cleric can do 150 damage to EVERY UNDEAD in an area why is a FB/WM that much more powerful? Do we not want Melee to be able to hold a candle to the magic users at least in one instance? I mean the only reason to stop this is to save that poor Palemasters life who is the only PC with permanent crit immune........Everyone is already subject to getting a improved knockdown beatdown from a FB/WM as it stands so I really do fail to see the point of how much more powerful that makes a glass cannon build? I mean if you land just one shot of a spell on them they are toasted. Just one. A smart magic user never fears them. Not one bit. They covet them so they can have them womp things for them! ;)
Again, not saying this isn't something to consider, but I think it would require a serious look at feats/classes to balance it (such as making it a 'mode' so it can't be used in conjunction with PA feats...so the character could 'turn on 1/2 crit to crit immune' but that would mean turning off PA/IPA/SPA).
I like this thought. It would even make you choose between CE/ICE as well. The build possibilities would be neat with this.
Basically this would take away one of the few disadvantages WM builds have, and when mixed with FB it would make them the best damage dealers on the server.
Not even close see Warlock built by TEO...........If you ever want to wax a dungeon no problem take a fully built warlock with you.
Kory Sentinel
"We should take the army head on!"

"... it sounds like a terrible idea, but look at that smile."
"And he just sounds so confident ... he is a favored soul."
"Even if we don't survive, he will, and isn't that what matters?" -Red Lancer
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AlfarinIcebreaker
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Re: Suggestion Weapon Master

Unread post by AlfarinIcebreaker »

I actually made the same suggestion several years ago. It would go a long way to revitalizing this interesting PrC which right now is not cost efective. You need 6 feats and everyting that WM brings to the table is nullified by Crit Immunity which is present on lots of high end critters.

However, I agree with Chad's opinon about needing to ban WM/FB combos if this goes in. Frankly, I advocate banning WM/FB combinations regardless of this.
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Blackman D
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Re: Suggestion Weapon Master

Unread post by Blackman D »

Calodan wrote:What I suggest is that since it is already a feat intensive build is that we add 3 levels bringing it up a full 10 level PRC
WM is already a 10 level PrC... you dont get any feats after 7, just ki hit uses but no one cares about that so there is no point in taking the last 3 levels

WMs suck against crit immune yes, but unlike rogues who are usually dex based, WM tend to be str based and still do ok base damage

WM is also already a rather loaded PrC as it is

and banning WM/FB because its a glass cannon wouldnt really work out well, its already a non magical, non UMD access combo on a server where if you dont have buffs you are not lasting too long, the one thing it has to its advantage is the high damage output

if we were to actually get rid of WM/FB then why play a fighter at all? everyone would be building tanks :?
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chad878262
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Re: Suggestion Weapon Master

Unread post by chad878262 »

if Calodan's idea were to be considered, I like the idea of making a level 10 WM ability to grant 1/2 critical damage as a mode that must be activated. In this manner there is no need to ban WM/FB combo's, since basically if fighting crit immune the WM/FB would have to chose between ICE, SPA, or mode to gain 1/2 crit.
Chord Silverstrings - Bard and OSR Squire / Tarent Nefzen - Arcane Wand Merchant and Master Alchemist / Irrace Arkentlar - Drow Adventurer / Finneaus Du'Veil - Gem Merchant and Executive Officer of SCCE

Tarent's Wands and Elixirs

A Wand Crafter's guide to using wands
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Blackman D
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Re: Suggestion Weapon Master

Unread post by Blackman D »

well at that point we are talking about 3 extra nearly pointless levels to do about the same damage between 1/2 crit and IPA :P

but if its added in as an option (mode) then whatever
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chad878262
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Re: Suggestion Weapon Master

Unread post by chad878262 »

Blackman D wrote:well at that point we are talking about 3 extra nearly pointless levels to do about the same damage between 1/2 crit and IPA :P

but if its added in as an option (mode) then whatever
We could always discuss ruin weapons again... *runs for cover*
Chord Silverstrings - Bard and OSR Squire / Tarent Nefzen - Arcane Wand Merchant and Master Alchemist / Irrace Arkentlar - Drow Adventurer / Finneaus Du'Veil - Gem Merchant and Executive Officer of SCCE

Tarent's Wands and Elixirs

A Wand Crafter's guide to using wands
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Blackman D
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Re: Suggestion Weapon Master

Unread post by Blackman D »

bad chad! *shoots at him* :evil:
everyone is evil till proven otherwise
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