Binding epic items to characters

[gedweyignasia]

Since high-tier equipment never exits the game economy, there is an inevitable inflation in item stats.

Background on a problem with the game economy

Hidden: show

Picture a graph from 0 to 100 representing an item's relative value, where 100 is the most desirable item on the server. The y axis of this graph runs from 0 to infinity, and denotes the probability that a random item in a player's inventory has that value. That is, the probability that an item picked at random from a player's inventory is worth 25-50% of the value of the best item on the server would be found by integrating this distribution from 25 to 50.

The distribution of value determined by the loot table would provide the initial distribution, but as players sold bad items to vendors and retained better items, the curve would shift from bottom-heavy to top-heavy. That is, instead of 0-10 quality items appearing with greatest frequency in a player's inventory, the average would move to 10-20, and continue to climb until it rested at the top; the only gear no player had any reason to destroy.

Of course, it is inevitable that individual characters can eventually obtain the best equipment available, since the technology in the setting does not advance at pace with what players can earn. We'll never have a "Red Queen" scenario where things are balanced so that nobody rests comfortably at the top, short of completely overhauling the ingame economy.

The proposed change simply limits the proportion of gear above a certain threshhold ("epic" gear), by recognizing that to maintain a competitive edge, players will RCR their characters as mechanics are rebalanced. (Characters are also, of course, retired for RP reasons.) When this happens, it would remove some of the highest-value equipment from our distribution.

Proposed change:
When an "epic" item is equipped (+4 or better gear, other items of that value), it becomes undroppable. The item is destroyed when the character is RCR'd. Players who no longer want an item they have bound to their character can ask a DM to remove the item, but will not be compensated in any way for the loss. This would include all items from the Avernus store and "grandfathered" items that can no longer be acquired. Items would continue to be available indefinitely as long as its owner was not RCR'd.


Without such a measure, the reprieve the Avernus store has bought the ingame economy would be only temporary. This would also provide a valuable gold sink to the demographic of players who have the most money available without disenfranchising players who can't afford such gear. It must be noted that this would, however, very negatively affect epic-level powerbuilders who do not grind for gear.


Edit:
Feel free to respond that this change would be bad or unnecessary. I'm specifically asking for that kind of feedback.

[chad878262]

I like the idea with all epic items being included and not just epic store items, but a couple things that should be considered...

+4 armor (unless full plate) or weapon are hardly 'epic'. You'll get a lot more for a +3 Longs word with 1-4 bonus fire damage (especially if alchemical silver) than you will for a +4 Long sword (though not nearly as much as pre-epic store! ). Therefore, I think a bit more thought needs to go in to considering where the 'cutoff' is. Is it +4 w/ extra's? Is an item with a more favorable bonus to a specific slot identified differently? +3 STR boots are worth considerably less than a +3 STR belt, for instance.

2nd issue is merchant RP. The on-equip helps, but what if a player has used a +4 spear with 1-6 bonus acid damage for months/years, and gets lucky enough to find a +4 Keen Spear with 1-6 bludgeoning and magic resistance 5/-? Is this character stuck with their old spear, even though the new one is mechanically superior? If a character legitimately happens upon a piece of gear shouldn't they be able to get some benefit out of the old gear they are no longer using?

While I agree there is benefit to disallowing muling a to be retired characters items to a new character, I don't think we should penalize (further) those who wish to RCR a level 30 back to 20 for whatever reason (poor Hoihe!) and I don't think we should take away players ability to legitimately sell/trade items which they no longer have a use for.

[Akroma666]

I can agree to a bind on equip.. But not pickup.. (My profits *rubs hands together*) also, it should only be applied to things with the "Epic" tag in the name.
But this brings about the problem of RCR. More DM staff drain to move the items. Maybe an account wide restriction?

[gedweyignasia]

chad:
Perhaps a special store where you could disintegrate the item for a small amount of gold? (~2000gp)

Akroma:
DMs would be instructed not to help players transfer the items; they would be lost in RCR.

[Wyatt]

A potential side effect to this would be people growing even more attached to characters and thus becoming unwilling to "kill them off." I know I have suffered from this is in the past and would certainly be even less willing to retire a character having all the equipment linked to it. I do not point this out as a positive or a negative, merely something to be considered.

[Flasmix]

If a PC is RCRing to the same PC, I don't see how it's fair to lose out on items with hundreds of thousands of gold if it's technically the same character.

[gedweyignasia]

If a PC is RCRing to the same PC, I don't see how it's fair to lose out on items with hundreds of thousands of gold if it's technically the same character.

RCR is technically for retiring a character.

[Planehopper]

This would impact a lot more than epic level powerbuilders.

This would impact those of us that used to play here enough to accumulate wealth, but got old and turned into a filthy casual and are now game-poors. I have gear. I do not have gold, see very few ways of getting gold that don't require an epic grind, and hate to see a very long standing rule upturned on a whim. The areas here are balanced by and for players that have it all, especially the higher level areas. With this, I'd be stuck playing the same characters forever, or knowing that any new characters are hosed.

This widens the gap of those that have and those that want. Now those of us that aren't rich and don't stay that way will not only have to strive to earn millions in gold, but millions in gold over and over again for any new character.

What about gold, is that going to be magically bound to characters too? What about merchants that want to sell gear they no longer use, can we not sell used gear?

I think this not only overturns something this server has long allowed, it makes drawing the line between permanent and moveable gear subjective and open to too many intricacies.

Most importantly, I don't see that there is a proven NEED for the change.

[chad878262]

So RIG items (worth more than standard epic, if you get a lucky draw) can still be sold for hundreds of thousands/millions of gold, but an 'Epic Handaxe of X' that has maybe +4, 1-6 Cold, 20% cold resistance is worth 2,000?

Again, not sure I like this idea. The primary way to get enough money to spend at the epic store is selling/trading greater and epic items. The RIG can produce some truly sick gear (not that I've found any ), but it won't be called 'Epic' it'll be called something like "Lloths Round Buttock" or some such nonsense...

While in theory it is nice, part of our economy is trading... Plus, it does help those with less wealth when they can buy from players who've 'upgraded'. Items from Thunderhammers shop routinely sell at Mudds for about 50% of the price the smith charges, because players generally realize other players are not going to pay much for something they can get themselves.

Currently, players are willing to pay the 10% 'trip/danger fee' to get stuff from the epic shop, but eventually it only benefits them if some player finds an upgrade or purchases one and just wants to get rid of an old item. Rather unfair to both the potential buyer and the seller to make the only path available to destroy the item for a paltry sum. This strikes me as another scenario where it won't hurt the 'top dogs' much, but will negatively impact the middle of the road players that have a few neat things. Those with lots of funds already also have lots of PC's so they'll just create a few more, kit them out with the appropriate gear and sit on it, after all it certainly isn't worth destroying it for 2k gold.

There needs to be some mechanic to allow for player sold epic gear, not just merchant sold.

Player A: "Hey check it out, Epic Fighter Combat Boots!"
Player B: "Sweet, they look good on you! What are you going to do with your old Epic Dodge Boots?"
Player A: "I'm going to sell them. . . I paid 700,000 gold for them 2 years ago, but deflation is a real PITA, they should be worth 2,000 now." *sad face*

Again, very much for not transferring epic gear from one PC to the next in the same account, but very against not allowing players to be a part of the economy in the game world.

[Valefort]

Again, very much for not transferring epic gear from one PC to the next in the same account, but very against not allowing players to be a part of the economy in the game world.

Unfortunately you can't have both. Otherwise if player 1 has character A and B and wants to transfer something from A to B .. he only needs to "sell" the items to player 2 who will sell those same items to player 1 on his B character. Basically muling while moving gold around to stay within the rules.

Perhaps a special merchant could actually buy the epic items for their game-estimated gold cost (but never sells anything).

[gedweyignasia]

So RIG items (worth more than standard epic, if you get a lucky draw) can still be sold for hundreds of thousands/millions of gold, but an 'Epic Handaxe of X' that has maybe +4, 1-6 Cold, 20% cold resistance is worth 2,000?

Two points of correction:

a) The system would apply to all items whose stats exceeded some "epic" threshhold, regardless of the item's name or origin. (e.g. any item with a +4 modifier or whose value exceeds X gp)

b) Those "epic" items could still be traded as long as they hadn't been equipped.



It intuitively feels like this system is taking away from you, but in fact it's protecting you. It makes everything non-epic you own more valuable, because the server won't have to slowly rebalance enemies towards better and better players as high-tier gear accumulates.

[Planehopper]

b) Those "epic" items could still be traded as long as they hadn't been equipped.

Why the distinction?

[gedweyignasia]

The distinction is so that epic gear "decays" off the server rather than being handed down indefinitely, but players can still barter and trade this gear before it's been used. DM Hera proposed this elegant fix, which would solve the problem without necessarily restricting such gear to the players who were doing the looting themselves.

[mrm3ntalist]

This will take grandfathered gear out of the circulation in a couple of years maybe.

At the same time this will cripple players that did something mechanically wrong with their build. For example i know that some new players got some really nice items as dm rewards. What will happen if those players realise that they did something wrong with their build? Even if someone just bought an epic item and after a week realises that he messed his build?

At the same time, ( I will used me as an example ) most my characters with epic gear are the way i like them. I dont see me rcring them in a couple of years or more.

[Planehopper]

What is your perceived outcome without this massive change? Is it only the aforementioned speculative power creep?

Is this handled by script? Who determines the gold value or power level of affected equipment? How is this number determined?

This all seems so arbitrary.