The "Epic Store"

[NegInfinity]

They're the build types I roll Neg. Why...

Dude, the problem is you assume too much and in wrong direction too. Interact with my characters in-game, then talk how "I'm in one of the people who are never happy" and how I am a "campfire rpr" and whatever.

What's up with this attitude of yours anyway? It reminds me of someone extremely unpleasant, and I'm fairly sure you were friendlier before. It is a game, do you remember that? You know, about having fun and being nice to people, so you can all kill paladins/orcs/whatever together and make amazing stories (where everybody optionally dies horribly in the end)?

The problem is that I originally said something along the lines of:
"I had negative experience and I think there may be a problem worth addressing on the server".
Response? "Nah, I had that amazing dwarf with 100k gold at level six, so you do not exist".
Someone chimes in and says "I never had this kind of gold"
Response? "Nah, my dwarven fighter was so amazing that you do not exist too".
How did it all start?
"I sorta understand why people don't like epic shops."
For the love of...

Does that kind of exchange make ANY sense to you? Regardless of what YOUR experience with your exceptionally amazing dwarf (which happens to be a type of characters I do not play), your experience with the game does not magically make experiences of other people disappear. I still remember that random dwarf that complained that he got stuck for two months on level 10. Not sure how, but it happened.

People should have a place for them to fit in, a way to get equipment they need, this way they'll stay, and make stories and interact... with YOU. If they don't find a place for them to fit, they'll leave and you'll have less characters to interact with. Do that too often, and there will be no one left.

All kinds of "pride" about in-game achievements, knowledge of in-game mechanics, honestly, needs to die. Aside from it still being a game, the problem is that this kind of attitude tends to rub people in the wrong way and shatter their positive experience.

I still remember first month on bgtscc. Honestly, it was absolutely amazing - first time when you could approach to anyone and talk to them, basically superior to any offline RPG - absolute freedom of hcoice. You know who ruined all that? Someone who let their in-game and d&d knowledge get in their head, got royally pissed that the party didn't want to go murder lizardmen with them, and then kept harrassing everybody for good ten minutes via private tells. The illusion of an amazing world died at that day. Try not to turn into this kind of person.

The reason why I bring up stuff is because I think there's a problem that needs addressing.
Oh, you didn't experience it? Well, in this case you got lucky. However, all the hand-waving in the world, will not make reason for original complaint go away, because something that happened, happened.

End of the Rant.

[Valefort]

If I understand well the problem is getting enough gold, this problem has already several solutions like it was pointed, however those solutions are not compatible (for RP or mechanical reasons) with every character (like it was also pointed).

Making the existing solutions for getting gold even more profitable is not a good way of tackling this issue because as one can read gold can flow in large quantities already, opening the valve further might solve some gold income problems for some people but will trigger other issues (huge amount of gold for other people, without many means to spend it). And likewise it's not an issue you can handwave away even if it does not affect you.

So what's left is inventing new solutions for gold income such as Flasmix's suggestion.

[Thorsson]

Look my latest character is such a Dwarven type, and yet he still has reached level 12 with only a few thousand gold. It's not just the sort of build you have, it's the way you play it.

[DreWalker]

Reduce tumble, max appraise

[Flasmix]

What do people consider a fair price to raise max buy to? Most I've seen is 1400 in the UD. When this idea is being thrown around are you guys thinking 2000? 2500?

[mrm3ntalist]

What do people consider a fair price to raise max buy to? Most I've seen is 1400 in the UD. When this idea is being thrown around are you guys thinking 2000? 2500?

It should stay the same.

But anyway - gold, epic shops, etc. A few months ago we had complaints of 'gold has no value', 'epic items are too rare'. Now it is 'I can't get gold quick enough', 'I can't make enough gold', 'Those epic items in the store are too expensive' and 'I don't like the epic item store'.

AC81 is spot on with the quote above.

Why you think it needs increasing? If we increase it, it will only get us to the "gold has no value" point faster. The epic shop and its prices went in with the current limits in mind.

[V'rass]

2500-3000 would be nice... there is absolutely no reason why i should have to sell high value stuff for pocket change when nobody is interested in buying said items to begin with. A +4 vorpal sword should sell at a merchant for a s**t-load more then 1250! Seriously, please increase the cap, thank you, goodbye...

[Valefort]

If anything the max buy should be lowered, it's through that 1350 or 1400 gold limit that looters gain most of their gold, if you want to bridge the gap it's a good idea to lower it, not the exact contrary.

[V'rass]

Again... certain items are worth far more, forcing people to either earn a piddling amount of coin from an npc or try to sell it to other players who have no interest in buying what you have anyway is unnecessary punishment. 2500-3000 max for epic items at npc's is more then fair since such items should be selling for more then 10k to begin with.

[Valefort]

I'm well aware that some items are worth far more than what the merchants propose. Again please consider the OTHER consequences. It has been repeated for the last 3 pages that there are already ways to gain gold very fast. Now I realize that not everyone will go through that kind of things but if you raise the max buy out you will make looters 3 times richer than they are now.

The inflation issue is much more important than making the life of new players easier through getting gear even faster than they do now (which has never been faster) .. everyone eventually gets decent gear.

[V'rass]

Gaining gold and gear is irrelevant to me actually... i already have a full set though upgrades are always nice. But going on a loot run, finding say a +4 Vorpal sword and only being able to get 1250 for it is simply silly. Granted such a sword prob does not exist on the server but still. Also selling to other players is a futile endevour... i have come across several uber items over the past few weeks and aside from one of them nobody is interested. 90% of the time i was told said items were either worthless despite being epic or that the base item was one not used by anyone and thus also worthless. I already sold the rest of my epic gear at the npc merchant for 1250... trying to sell them to other players is not worth the time, effort, or grief.

[Snarfy]

It has been repeated for the last 3 pages that there are already ways to gain gold very fast.

The problem is... they all originate from investing massive amounts of time into OOC-loot grinding.

... but if you raise the max buy out you will make looters 3 times richer than they are now.

Looters are going to get rich no matter how much the buy-out is, because looters will loot. A slight increase to the max buy out to say... 1800, might pad the wallets of looters, true. But at the same time, when a player who spends more time RP'ing/occasionally looting finds an item that is valued by the NPC at 10k, at least they'll make back a bit more on their find, and thus be that much closer to being able to afford other outrageously priced NPC wares. Then again, an increase in the max buy out might inspire more player to loot-grind more.

Maybe a better idea is to lower the prices of some of the equipment so that players feel they are getting value back for the items they buy/find? What I mean is, when you hit level 8 and have to pay 3,000 or 4,000(I forget the price) for a +2 Longsword from the Smithy, where's the appeal in making 1/4 of that back when you upgrade? Or even on the +3 Longsword that you find 2 weeks later?

Let's face it, the selling value of items is hugely disproportionate to buying prices, and players are forced to devote long hours of play time in an out-of-character fashion in order to afford the higher tier store bought items. I'm sure I don't need to iterate what kind of an effect it can have when the equipment market caters only to those who invest more time in loot-grinding, do I? Unfortunately, getting items for being a devoted RP'er, which either requires going on adventures and crossing your fingers to win the loot-table jackpot, or from DM rewards, which is far less likely(I think I received 2 or 3 items in 5 years, one of which was a shrubbery prop ) and raises issues of favoritism.

The idea of OOC-necessity to be able to afford the epic shops items seems really counter-intuitive to me, personally. But I admit, other than perhaps lowering NPC vendor prices and/or a small buy out increase, I'm struggling to think of any decent solution.

[Flasmix]

I still think my gold drip would work especially if it's disabled when a chest is looted. Raising the max buy, I don't like the idea because it's really just helping the looters as said many times over.

One possible idea to help new players is a once per CD key gift bag of basically 10k gold, +1 weapon of choice, +1 armor of choice, +1 deflection cloak with regen and either a collection of consumables or scrolls. If it's limited to just a single CD key then it can't be abused. If people like this idea I'll make a new suggestion thread for it.

[Thorsson]

I think the best thing would be to remove random loot drops entirely and make all loot gold. Then you could have sensible prices for items, both buying and selling. No longer would grinding be super-rewarded and even the slowest earners would get there eventually.

[chad878262]

I personally would not like that. Yes 99.99999999% of what get's dropped is junk, but I still have a half dozen items I've found that aren't epic, but are nice gear that I like having, such as my +3 WIS hood with immunity to fear. If none of this dropped and we could only purchase gear eventually you have a bunch of similar 'builds' with the same dozen or so gear setups.