More reasonable cost of scribing scrolls

[Pimple]

I'd like the cost of scribing scrolls to be if not less than what they are sold for by NPCS - which would make the most sense to me - then at least somewhere in the neighborhood of comparable for the same caster level.

It's strange, I think, when you have to come up with some bogus reason why your scroll has to cost twice what that other wizard's scroll costs.

[Calodan]

Since the new system does not have stacking scrolls I agree we should have a way lower cost for them now. Although like that matters. Cheaper still does not stack.

[Pimple]

There's already a thread about that. It's not a major concern for me, but I can see it being inconvenient. I'd just like scribing scrolls to be worth doing and also not have this bizarre difference between the cost of getting one from an NPC or a player.

[Ambaryerno]

Since the new system does not have stacking scrolls I agree we should have a way lower cost for them now. Although like that matters. Cheaper still does not stack.

Honestly, the lack of stacking and ESPECIALLY the generic icon so it's impossible to tell the difference at a quick glance, is a far bigger concern for me than cost. Especially considering I'd be perfectly happy paying more out of pocket (within reason. It shouldn't be TOO much more, especially after you factor in the cost of blank scrolls) considering I can scribe scrolls at a higher caster level than what's available in the shops or from drops.

Regardless of what's done, right now scribing has VERY little utility.

[Wandering_Woodsman]

I agree wholeheartedly on this.

One of my character is a mage. Granted, he's a pain in the arse mage, but still a mage.

As such however, he is sometimes required to make scrolls. Where is the logic, if any can reasonably be found, in having a system to make a magic missle scroll when I can buy the same type of scroll from a merchant, for a tenth of the price?

Moreover, where is the interpersonal communication, trade and RP between mages who wish to share their knowledge when the general conversation goes something like this:

Player A: I know the Darkness spell, and you don't. I don't know Firebrand, however, and you do. Would you care to exchange scrolls?

Player B: Just buy it from a merchant. It's far cheaper then anyone could make it.

Additionally, I'm still quite stumped on the reasoning behind DC variations of crafting scrolls. To my mind, you cast at your current strength. Trying to cast higher then that would result in blowing yourself apart, or literally burning your magic out.

Hrmm, on the flipside though, supposedly all the magic needed is within the scroll itself, and all you do is release it. So...debatable, I suppose.

[Tsidkenu]

I'd personally prefer stackable crafted scrolls again, although a reduction in price for both these, wands and potions would help UMDers a fair bit, esp. given the Dispelling fix which all but eliminates pure spellcasting.

[Ambaryerno]

I agree wholeheartedly on this.

One of my character is a mage. Granted, he's a pain in the arse mage, but still a mage.

As such however, he is sometimes required to make scrolls. Where is the logic, if any can reasonably be found, in having a system to make a magic missle scroll when I can buy the same type of scroll from a merchant, for a tenth of the price?

Moreover, where is the interpersonal communication, trade and RP between mages who wish to share their knowledge when the general conversation goes something like this:

Player A: I know the Darkness spell, and you don't. I don't know Firebrand, however, and you do. Would you care to exchange scrolls?

Player B: Just buy it from a merchant. It's far cheaper then anyone could make it.

Additionally, I'm still quite stumped on the reasoning behind DC variations of crafting scrolls. To my mind, you cast at your current strength. Trying to cast higher then that would result in blowing yourself apart, or literally burning your magic out.

Hrmm, on the flipside though, supposedly all the magic needed is within the scroll itself, and all you do is release it. So...debatable, I suppose.

It would definitely do a lot towards boosting the player economy, as well as fostering RP between mages.

[chad878262]

As a thought experiment, what would everyone be willing to pay for scrolls / potions to gain caster benefits? One of the two characters I currently play most often is a level 20 character with Wiz/Master Alchemist and Thaumaturge levels and he's really just a wand crafter most of the time because it is exceedingly rare that anyone wants to buy the crafted potions. A few enterprising players have made use of the ability to get up to CL 20 potions of up to level 7 wizard spells (a few is an exaggeration...two would be the 'real' number over the past couple months), but by and large players have stated they are just too expensive...

There are really just a couple of concerns related to changing crafting prices that need to be considered... 1, ensuring a player can't spam crafting and selling to an NPC vendor for a profit and 2, ensuring the cost is not so low that it becomes possible to utilize CL30 scrolls/potions to buff up your non-magical melee for 30 minutes (or more) and go on a looting spree that more than covers the costs and allows for a no risk gish with full melee power progression.

So, currently the formula for scrolls and potions is stock NWN2 which equates to scrolls costing 25 GP x CL x SL and potions costing 50 (35 for MA) GP x CL x SL, while wands (for comparison) cost 750 GP x CL x SL to craft, but have the additional benefit of allowing for at least one, usually 2 and possibly 3 or 4 recharges at a lower cost and having 50 charges taking up only one inventory slot. Wands are already a decent gold sink so I don't think anyone would argue for a change there, almost all the players I know use them so their value is unquestionable... So what price point would make scrolls / potions competitive to wands? Scrolls, requiring UMD for cross-class usage should always be a good deal cheaper (50% in stock so that should stay in place) and for the purposes of my questions assume that at a minimum the custom scrolls being stackable can be fixed (and I've no idea if it can, Rasael or someone dev side would have to comment) since no one is going to carry around scrolls that take up one inventory slot each at any cost.

Sorry if this is considered high-jacking the thread, and if Pimple doesn't like this path I am happy to edit/delete the post, but after he started this thread I opened a similar one in QC and would like to hear thoughts from the community on when the 'gold sink' from scrolls and potions would become low enough that they are actually willing to sink gold in to it.

[Hoihe]

As a perpetually broke wizard's player, I'm in favour of this!

[Tantive]

When you see costs of making a scroll ten times as expensive then buying from an npc store, you know the cost of scribing scrolls is completely broken. The cost of scribing the scrolls along with releasing the currently unscribable variants to me seems a priority for any wizard related update. And to a lesser extent all other classes which can scribe scrolls but not to spellbook. But currently theres little reason to even take the feat because of the extreme prices.

It is however tedious work to fix so I hear, but in scope and comparison of other development related projects things I don't think it is a complicated one.

[Pimple]

So what price point would make scrolls / potions competitive to wands? Scrolls, requiring UMD for cross-class usage should always be a good deal cheaper (50% in stock so that should stay in place) and for the purposes of my questions assume that at a minimum the custom scrolls being stackable can be fixed (and I've no idea if it can, Rasael or someone dev side would have to comment) since no one is going to carry around scrolls that take up one inventory slot each at any cost.

Sorry if this is considered high-jacking the thread, and if Pimple doesn't like this path I am happy to edit/delete the post, but after he started this thread I opened a similar one in QC and would like to hear thoughts from the community on when the 'gold sink' from scrolls and potions would become low enough that they are actually willing to sink gold in to it.

No objections. It might be arrogant of me, but I can't imagine there being any argument against aligning the cost of scribing to compete with the NPCs, so I figure that's not going to spark much debate anyway. Maybe implementation? *Shrugs*

I'm not personally vested in the cost of potions, wands or crafting, but whatever the level all that is to be, I just think it shouldn't be too far from what competition you'll get from NPCs.

[Ambaryerno]

So what price point would make scrolls / potions competitive to wands? Scrolls, requiring UMD for cross-class usage should always be a good deal cheaper (50% in stock so that should stay in place) and for the purposes of my questions assume that at a minimum the custom scrolls being stackable can be fixed (and I've no idea if it can, Rasael or someone dev side would have to comment) since no one is going to carry around scrolls that take up one inventory slot each at any cost.

Sorry if this is considered high-jacking the thread, and if Pimple doesn't like this path I am happy to edit/delete the post, but after he started this thread I opened a similar one in QC and would like to hear thoughts from the community on when the 'gold sink' from scrolls and potions would become low enough that they are actually willing to sink gold in to it.

No objections. It might be arrogant of me, but I can't imagine there being any argument against aligning the cost of scribing to compete with the NPCs, so I figure that's not going to spark much debate anyway. Maybe implementation? *Shrugs*

I'm not personally vested in the cost of potions, wands or crafting, but whatever the level all that is to be, I just think it shouldn't be too far from what competition you'll get from NPCs.

I'd agree with this: It shouldn't cost much more than the NPCs. Considering NPC vendors already buy gear back for less than what they sell it, farming by scribing spells cheap and selling them to vendors shouldn't be an issue. Especially since you already have to pay for the blank scroll on top of the cost of crafting.

[chad878262]

Well, I am fairly certain it is impossible to align to vendors as scrolls sold by vendors are not priced on any sort of intuitive calculation. Just go look at a Superior Resistance scroll vs. other scrolls of a similar level. The prices on NPC scrolls (and potions) is arbitrary and I can promise you there is not a single scripter/coder/etc. that will take the time to individually go through and set a price for every single spell in the game. What someone could do is to go in and just set the modifier to a new number. This is why I explained the current mechanic and asked for feedback on pricing...

For instance, say I request we reduce Scrolls from 25 down to 20 GP calculation and Potions from 50 down to 40... Is that enough? would this suddenly increase the economy and RP between wizards of trading scrolls/spells and make players want to purchase player crafted scrolls/potions?

For comparison sake, if you were to scribe a level 9 spell based on the above at CL17 the cost would be (20 x 9 x 17 = 3,060 gold vs. 3,825 currently)... A level 3 potion at CL 5 would cost (40 x 3 x 5 = 600 vs. 750 currently). Is this still too high to be valuable to the PC's on the server? If so what number becomes valuable, realistically? I don't think it is fair to expect the calculation go down to 5 gp for scrolls and 10 for potions, but maybe it is? These are the types of thoughts that can be discussed from a balance perspective. What's the right number?

Taking Wands as an example, ignoring the ability to recharge them, the cost per use of a wand can be determined as number of charges divided by cost. So if a player is willing to spend 50,000 gold on a wand of dimension door (cost to craft such a wand, if I recall is ~42,00 gold + cost of a bone wand), for instance (one of the more expensive wands I have crafted) that is 1,000 gold per use. However, that same potion would cost (50 x 4 x 7 = 1,400) to craft, so if the player creating the potion is making any money on it, let's say 200 gold, it is a 60% increase in cost over what was paid for the wand (and that only because the wand is set at a higher CL than is necessary). In n this case for a potion to compete with a wand the crafting cost would need to be less than 35 gold per potion (35 gold would make the potion cost 980 per potion). Scrolls, therefore would be somewhat competitive if you could stack 10 instead of 1, but 700 gold per scroll (if you can scribe them at CL7) isn't all that big a benefit and if you have to craft them at the same CL as the wand you lose out.

At the end of the day a wand modifier per use is 15 gold, scrolls should be less than that (IMO) at 10 gold and potions slightly more (they don't require UMD) so perhaps anywhere from 20-30 gold. These are my thoughts on the subject in regards to changing scribing/brewing costs to be more in line with wand crafting as well as more competitive with most vendor purchased scrolls/potions.

[Pimple]

I had this strange idea that prices would make some kind of sense, has to be some reason behind the formula... then I saw Analyze Dweomer for 5g at the enclave, so excuse me while I find some place to cry alone.

At a glance, I think the modifiers you suggested make sense.

[Deathgrowl]

Rather see vendor scrolls' price increased myself. That would be a gold sink that would actually work.