Ninja(phantom) Vs Rogue

[Mallore]

What if you only want to mix with one other prc? or just go pure? thus why the weakness in the lack of a level 20 benefit that everyone else got. If we didnt have say Level 20 benefit on Rangers would we see a lot less ranger 21? Maybe, maybe not.

BMD pointed out that R21/A9 is a perfectly viable build. I get's a metric ton of skill points, and a solid amount of sneak attack dice (16d6) and with a decent INT is going to have a solid save or paralyzed (dead) from Assassin. I don't see the lack of a level 20 benefit as a weakness because (as BMD stated) they received 4 feats from levels 10-19, a few of them can ONLY be obtained by taking them at 10, 13, 16 or 19 rogue. Rangers do not get a benefit at 20, it's at 21 and honestly I see THAT as the weakness. Their multi-classing is severely limited by the dispel fix (need at least CL28 and R22/A8 is only CL26 so can't rely on spells much) as well as the fact that level 21 bring free one shot or PTWF as well as access to Bane of Enemies.

I will get to your rest later.


My first problem here is the R21 A9. Some people just refuse to take assassin as they think its an evil class and rightly so. I hate that we do not have the evil restriction on the class. it is evil. So r21/ what???? we do lack a bit in the rogue archetype department here.

Further it be nice to play a mundane, why does everything have to have spell books or need buffs to be competitive on this server to survive? the archetype of rogue is often using skill and wit to cheat or forgo magic. cheat or forgot strength with guile.

And taking your ranger argument.. it hurts their multi class because the ability is that cool? I do not understand. What I am asking and suggestion is opening up the window to more builds and in no way limits them? are we afraid someone is gonna come up with a killer r20/5/5 build? My view this allows people to take the PRC's they want with out an over excess of dead levels.

also its not 4 free feats, its three. the one at ten doesn't count or we going to count every classes ability at 10 a feat, and if so then it still comes to three.

However, even with this fact you still see people that take Ranger only to level 6, 9 or 11 in certain builds that mix with things like Tempest, Fighter or Rogue. Frankly a Ranger11/R10/A9 might be just as good as a R22/A8 since at that point you really are only using spells as a neat party trick and are focusing on having 10d6 SA dice (and epic precision) which is better than the situational 2d6 from bane of enemies...

Yes, and these are all fun builds, my point is still the same. by doing so we might encourage or open up new builds. does this hurt the server or help?

Even your math here shows what it did for rangers, making it more interesting then not. this will do the same.

Lets give the players the choice. I will get to the rest later. =)

[Blackman D]

My first problem here is the R21 A9. Some people just refuse to take assassin as they think its an evil class and rightly so. I hate that we do not have the evil restriction on the class. it is evil.

while i miss the evil requirement on assassin as well, it was removed because it was easier than adding the two other counterparts to assassin, being avenger and some other one who basically get the same thing as assassin but require good or neutral alignment

but yes one of my arguments for simply not removing the alignment was that it would cause such confusion, however here we are

Further it be nice to play a mundane, why does everything have to have spell books or need buffs to be competitive on this server to survive?

you dont... it just means you are not going to some places by yourself and if you are in a group with those that use magic you should do ok if your gear is decent

[chad878262]

I still do not fully understand the whole level 10 ability/level 20 ability. Fighter doesn't get a level 10 ability or level 20 ability (unless you count the fighter feats, but those are every two levels and have nothing to do with reaching 10/20 in the class). Ranger gets nothing at 10 or at 20. Here is a list of the classes that get nothing at level 10 or 20:

Bard
Cleric
Druid (unless you count Shape progression, but I don't since they get that at multiple levels)
FvS (it gets DR at level 20, but at level 10 all that happens is improvement of Energy Resistance that it already had, not a new ability)
Fighter (just gets fighter bonus feats as it does at every other even level)
Paladin
Ranger
Sorcerer
Spirit Shaman (gets Spirit who walks at 20, but nothing at 10)
Swashbuckler (gets improvements to abilities previously received because they come every 4 or 5 levels, but no special ability)
Wizard (unless you count bonus feat which it gets every 5 levels)

So, as we can see from this list, the majority of base classes don't get something at 10 or 20. Some, such as Swasbuckler get something at 19 or, like Ranger get something at 21. There are really only a small few (Monk, Warlock and Barbarian) that have these special level 10/level 20 abilities you're talking about. The rest of the classes get abilities differently, or just get special selections of extra feats, like the rogue at various levels.

[aaron22]

My first problem here is the R21 A9. Some people just refuse to take assassin as they think its an evil class and rightly so. I hate that we do not have the evil restriction on the class. it is evil. So r21/ what???? we do lack a bit in the rogue archetype department here.

assassin is a generic term for a way of achieving a result. in terms of good/evil that is quite perspective based. in RL Hitler wasnt combing his mustache in the mirror saying how Lawful Evil he was. and that should not be confused with in the FR setting. good and evil fall upon ideals of active and participating gods. both sides kill thinking creatures. if you perceive a RW assassin with the PrC assassin you would be incorrect. same could be said for the titles of many of the titles of classes. but in the end is a fighter any more or less evil than an assassin. not in forgotten realms. its a place where killing and murder are functions of society. good and evil still lie in the hands of the character creator/player.

Further it be nice to play a mundane, why does everything have to have spell books or need buffs to be competitive on this server to survive? the archetype of rogue is often using skill and wit to cheat or forgo magic. cheat or forgot strength with guile.

because we live in a world of high magic. and even that said the rogue is one of the few classes that CAN forgo magic with stealth and creating a distinctive advantage. where this falls short is in server rules of PvP. if you mean PvE, HiPS and/or utilizing social skills to achieve goals is available. all said; magic is trump on the server and with the dispell fix, that created a separation of the cans and cannots. and a few points are all that separate the two.

And taking your ranger argument.. it hurts their multi class because the ability is that cool? I do not understand. What I am asking and suggestion is opening up the window to more builds and in no way limits them? are we afraid someone is gonna come up with a killer r20/5/5 build? My view this allows people to take the PRC's they want with out an over excess of dead levels.

only you and the mechanics dictate how to build your character. if you want a R4/C12/SD4/BG10 go for it. if you want a R30. go for it. if you want a C15/W15..... go for it. some will not work very well. but you still have the option of doing it as long as the mechanics will allow it.
dead levels?? most classes have these. i dont know what to say to this. a fighter has 6 dead levels in 30.

Yes, and these are all fun builds, my point is still the same. by doing so we might encourage or open up new builds. does this hurt the server or help?

Even your math here shows what it did for rangers, making it more interesting then not. this will do the same.

Lets give the players the choice. I will get to the rest later. =)

a ranger is one of the few unique classes that are good at many stopping points. this makes them useful in fleshing out several different play styles. ranger is just that way. one of the only truly unique and special classes that are so helpful without being OP.

the players do have a choice. its about finding a good way to express it within the mechanics and to me rogue is not missing anything. i would not be surprised if it is the most dipped class on the server (dont recall the spread or where it was posted).

[The Whistler]

WTB wounding strike, stupefying strike, maladroiting (is that even a word) strike, etc strike in the same vein as crippling strike purchasable only with rogue special ability feats.

[Blackman D]

yea thats another good point, 10 levels of rogue and you get a stackable str drain on SA hit which is much easier to do in most cases than say the swash abilities that need what? 17 and 19 levels as well as a crit hit for str and con drain

and they are the only two classes that can drain stats without spells and rogue does it way easier

[chad878262]

yea thats another good point, 10 levels of rogue and you get a stackable str drain on SA hit which is much easier to do in most cases than say the swash abilities that need what? 17 and 19 levels as well as a crit hit for str and con drain

and they are the only two classes that can drain stats without spells and rogue does it way easier

crippling strike, much like evasion get's overshadowed as a 'prerequisite' for an epic feat and sometimes people forget that it is a really nice ability in it's own right. Wouldn't it be the first Rogue feat taken by most builds even if it was not a prereq for Epic Precision?

[The Whistler]

I believe my suggestion to have some merit. Going rogue 19 would be incentivized further by adding other stat draining attacks as you can mix 2 of them without sacrificing epic dodge. Hampering strike to drain DEX & Crippling strike to drain STR would make for a great debuffer, whilst Wounding strike to drain CON & Stupefying strike to drain INT would make for a pretty scary wizard killer.

You can make it so that all of them qualify you for EP and adjust how much of each stat different strikes drain. For example, I couldn't see Wounding strike draining more than 1 CON, as it would be pretty nuts.

[7threalm]

or this

Mage Slayer

( Complete Arcane, p. 81)

[General]

You have studied the ways and weaknesses of spellcasters and can time your attacks and defenses against them expertly.
Prerequisite
Spellcraft 2 ranks, base attack bonus +3,
Required for
Pierce Magical Concealment (CAr) , Pierce Magical Protection (CAr) ,
Benefit
You gain a +1 bonus on Will saving throws. Spellcasters you threaten may not cast defensively (they automatically fail their Concentration checks to do so), but they are aware that they cannot cast defensively while being threatened by a character with this feat.
Special
Taking this feat reduces your caster level for all your spells and spell-like abilities by 4.





Pierce Magical Concealment

( Complete Arcane, p. 81)

[General]

You ignore the miss chance provided by certain magical effects.
Prerequisite
Blind-Fight (PH) , Mage Slayer (CAr) , CON 13,
Benefit
Your fierce contempt for magic allows you to disregard the miss chance granted by spells or spell-like abilities such as darkness, blur, invisibility, obscuring mist, ghostform (see page 109), and spells when used to create concealment effects (such as a wizard using permanent image to fill a corridor with illusory fire and smoke). In addition, when facing a creature protected by mirror image, you can immediately pick out the real creature from its figments. Your ability to ignore the miss chance granted by magical concealment doesn't grant you any ability to ignore nonmagical concealment (so you would still have a 20% miss chance against an invisible creature hiding in fog, for example).
Special
Taking this feat reduces your caster level for all your spells and spell-like abilities by 4. best part

Pierce Magical Protection

( Complete Arcane, p. 82)

[General]

You can overcome the magical protections of your enemies.
Prerequisite
Mage Slayer (CAr) , CON 13,
Benefit
Your contempt for magic is so fierce that as a standard action you can make a melee attack that ignores any bonuses to Armor Class granted by spells (including spell trigger or spell completion effects created by magic items such as wands or potions). If you deal damage to your opponent, you also instantly and automatically dispel all that opponent's spells and spell effects that grant a bonus to Armor Class.
Special
Taking this feat reduces your caster level for all your spells and spell-like abilities by 4.

those would be great pve abilities, and make the buffer player play smarter, but something like that though legitimate would never make it in due to politics of the server

[Invoker]

those would be great pve abilities, and make the buffer player play smarter, but something like that though legitimate would never make it in due to politics of the server

And when it would make it in, people would discover it's not all that good at killing good mages.

It reminds me of when I pick Invoker first, and the other team goes Silencer, Antimage and Nyx Assassin and they proceed to get absolutely destroyed. By me.

In both cases, what's missing is considering actual positioning. In games, like in real life, fighting is movement, and mobility and positioning win and lose fights.

I don't see anything in this PrC that helps getting close to a mage, and staying close when he Quickens snares and movement spells. Until you have a blink, a slow, a hard disable...you're food for a good mage's player.

[Vogar Eol]

WTB wounding strike, stupefying strike, maladroiting (is that even a word) strike, etc strike in the same vein as crippling strike purchasable only with rogue special ability feats.

This. I've played Strength based rogues before, and they do great. Stack in Initative improving feats, to counter your lower dex, and they really really hurt when they swing. Combine with Feint and EW, and Ouch!

http://nwn2db.com/build/?117876