Fighter / Mage / Thief builds - what do you prefer?

[chad878262]

Ground a halfdrow rogue3/wiz7/AT10/EK10 all the way through epic, drow would be even better.

Without HIPS (feinter) it soloed every level well, granted summons or other players being around make the build perform even better (those 7d6 SA).

Improved Combat Expertise and wards make it defensible.
Meanwhile buffs and Combat Insight make it do decent damage.

Good way to build a powerwise decent trickster build with CL30, not a powerbuild but fun to play since it is so versatile.

Beat most things into submission? check
Spellblast most things into oblivion? check
Fancy roleplay skills? check
Pvp beast? not so much, unless we implement Curse of Monkey Island dueling.


Armor and shields are for smelly people of weak dodgyness.

/M

Yep, I played with something similar for a bit Munin... I think I was looking at 1 more rogue level for BAB21 CL29 instead of 20/30 and I was thinking CE, Feint and One Hander instead of ICE in place of the TWF, ITWF, GTWF feats. Other than the 1 level difference for rogue instead of wizard and the one different feat it was probably a carbon copy. I don't really care much about PvP and mine is definitely crushing stuff in mid teens so I am enjoying it thus far.

You asked about the different ways to prioritize the AT, and I guess my answer is I didn't really prioritize anything as #1. my CL, sneakiness, spell DC and death attack (8d6, DC 31) are all just a few points too low to claim #1 priority, but I guess I prioritize the "most of the time" play more than others who want that 1 or 2 more points in their specialty for the critical moments.

Well the question was more about what would you give up? Based on your build you would give up melee combat. Your PC is a Mage/Thief, which is fine, there are plenty on the server and since you have experience with how to play it using bloodmage instead of ASOC is a great choice. You won't necessarily need the practical metamagics to help manage your spellbook so the extra CL to keep up your wards will be nice. CL27 will be fine, if you are good at using the HiPS timer and can keep an eye on the combat log to counter spell when needed you could be even lower. As I said, my current build will only reach CL25 and I am not overly worried about it, was just interested to hear if others would give up HiPS to get higher caster level and how they would make such a build. CL30 is protection from greater dispel, but there are other protections, such as HiPS and counter spelling, but really my questions was related to what to give up if you are trying to build something that, in 2nd edition AD&D was quite powerful, but in 3.5 D&D is going to have to make some compromises. For example, Storm Munin gave up the 5th attack / round and extra sneak attacks via PTWF, as well as HiPS, but instead he used feint or a partner to land sneak attacks, gained CL30 and higher damage per attack via combat insight. As I said previously, that is one of things that I find so much fun about the idea of F/M/T in 3.5... It can be done, but you have to give up something along the way...Either Caster Level, or HiPS, or BAB/APR...something has to be less optimized than you would like, but you can still come out of it with a viable/semi-powerful character.

[Vesgar]

You're right about that one has to give up something to be exceptional in a field, just like he went for the Mage/Thief path, I went with the Fighter/Thief and was content with just UMD tricks, as I just hate to see my BAB/APR go really low... Things like Combat Insight or Expose Weakness are great, but I never liked the thought of waiting for the epic levels till I can actually realize my character's potential.

It's tempting to try to make a true Fighter/Mage/Thief character, but I still have no idea how would that thing look like in nwn2. Anything with rogue, wizard and arcane trickster levels in it is really just a Mage/Thief, even if you add some Eldritch Knight levels to it and then you would miss hips, so we went back to picking Assassin levels again, which makes it look like a Mage/Thief even more, but with a sub-optimal CL.

[chad878262]

You're right about that one has to give up something to be exceptional in a field, just like he went for the Mage/Thief path, I went with the Fighter/Thief and was content with just UMD tricks, as I just hate to see my BAB/APR go really low... Things like Combat Insight or Expose Weakness are great, but I never liked the thought of waiting for the epic levels till I can actually realize my character's potential.

It's tempting to try to make a true Fighter/Mage/Thief character, but I still have no idea how would that thing look like in nwn2. Anything with rogue, wizard and arcane trickster levels in it is really just a Mage/Thief, even if you add some Eldritch Knight levels to it and then you would miss hips, so we went back to picking Assassin levels again, which makes it look like a Mage/Thief even more, but with a sub-optimal CL.

Not exactly. Let me walk you through my Fighter/Mage/Thief:

W6 to start while getting able learner and melee weapon proficiency with 2 of your first 3 feats (other one was weapon finesse, for me). Then Eldritch Knight to 13 while getting your skills in place to take Assassin. Assassin 3 at 16 qualifies you for AT. So at level 20 you look something like W6/EK7/A3/AT4. Your caster level is 20, but you only have level 8 spells...You can get level 9 spells at 21 by taking AT or EK level, but I am actually leaning towards being W6/EK7/A4/AT3 at 20 w/ CL 19 and taking my first 4 levels in epics as Assassin which will get me HiPS at 24, but CL will be 19 the whole time and will only have 8 level spells. You end up as W6/EK8/A8/AT8 (though switching out a level of Wizard for EK gains 2 HP if you really want to squeeze every last bit out of it) with a CL of 25 and BAB of 21. The BAB is fine because you have GMW, Greater Heroism and if needed can use wands for bless and aid, in addition to HiPS and getting your DEX up to 26 (30 with Cat's grace) and you have a long term (25 minutes or more) AB of 40, 42 if you use bless/aid. This is PLENTY for a HiPSter. The major issue is HiPS is how you land sneak attacks, but it is also a defense against dispels so some scouting and advance knowledge is needed to make sure you don't come out of HiPS to fight a mob while a caster hit's you with dispel.

Another build is Storm Munin's idea, which is R/W/EK/AT. This does not get HiPS, but can hit CL30, giving up a 5th attack by dropping BAB to 20. Or you can get BAB21 and CL29 by going R4/W6/AT10/EK10. You have to forego TWF if you want a reliable way to land sneak attacks via feint, but have room for one hander, making this idea very close to your own build, but with feint instead of HiPS. CL29 is not going to be easily dispelled except by breach/mords for which there is no reliable protection outside of counter spelling or being able to use HiPS. Finally, there is the idea posted by Invoker to go W7/AT10/EK10/Bodyguard 3 which gets extra speed to allow for a bit easier time breaking line of sight so you can hide again and get's CL30 and BAB21.

Each of these three builds would (IMO) qualify as a fighter/mage/thief as you will have some skill in handling traps and locks as well as stealth and enough points to have a decent mix of skills. Storm Munin gives up a bit of fighter (6 APR due to BAB20 and no TWF feats) and 1 sneak dice over my Assassin build, but is CL30 and due to rogue can disarm traps over DC20. The point is that you can build a F/M/T and you can even reach CL30... You could even get HiPS and reach CL27 or 28, but you become much more of a mage/thief or a fighter/mage, depending on if you take AT or EK as your 4th class (W/R/SD/X).

Probably just making you question your build more, but don't. Fighter/Thief is fine and F/R/A/WoD is a fine build choice. If you're enjoying it just continue doing so, that'd be my advice.

[Vesgar]

My highest toon on BGTSCC was a gish, true he barely touched the epic levels in his time, but I had my fair share of buff&go type of gameplay and in the end it made me realize I don't like to be a walking xmas tree. So, while I enjoy the idea of having various arcane solutions, I tend to keep the fighting strictly physical.

I'm not really fond of the Assassin spellbook, but with UMD and wands I have just as much magical power as I wanted. So everything is fine.

[chad878262]

I'm not really fond of the Assassin spellbook, but with UMD and wands I have just as much magical power as I wanted. So everything is fine.

Really? Ghostly Visage is ok, but Cat's Grace and Fox's Cunning are your go-to spells for AC, AB(if you have finesse) and increased DC on your death attack. Freedom of Movement has good uses and Greater Invisibility is very good to use against most bosses for the ability to sneak attack, HiPS and sneak attack again right away, not to mention the 50% concealment...

[Vesgar]

I'm not really fond of the Assassin spellbook, but with UMD and wands I have just as much magical power as I wanted. So everything is fine.

Really? Ghostly Visage is ok, but Cat's Grace and Fox's Cunning are your go-to spells for AC, AB(if you have finesse) and increased DC on your death attack. Freedom of Movement has good uses and Greater Invisibility is very good to use against most bosses for the ability to sneak attack, HiPS and sneak attack again right away, not to mention the 50% concealment...

Ghostly Visage is ok, but again, I don't like the visual effects. Cat's Grace is something that I don't really need, with a mithral BP my max Dex modifier is +5 (My character uses longswords, so I'm focusing on Str. ) and with 17 dex and a +3 dex item I have that without relying on the lackluster assassins spells.

Assassins can't extend their spells and with the limited CL they are kinda meh compared to real arcane casters, not to mention they are like old leaves in a stormy wind, getting dispelled left and right. Fox's Cunning is fine, while right now I only have a +2 int item, that +1 DC on the Death Attack isn't that bad, but again duration and dispels.

Freedom of Movement is nice to have, but as far as I know it doesn't make you immune to knockdown effects, which is the bane of all sneaky characters.

Of course I don't really have anything against Greater Invisibility, but then there are spells like Detect Poison, that still needs a Craft Alchemy check to succeed, or the two useless Sleep spells.

I decided to pick Assassin only for the paralyzing Death Attack and Hips. The Assassin could have a much more interesting spellbook imo, with an at least half decent duration and CL.

[chad878262]

Freedom of Movement is nice to have, but as far as I know it doesn't make you immune to knockdown effects, which is the bane of all sneaky characters.

Freedom of movement will protect you against Yuan-Ti Assassins and some other nasty effects... For Knockdown protection I recommend you use your UMD to get a wand of Mirror Images and Displacement (for when you don't have any uses of Greater Invisibility left). It will no longer be your bane.

I decided to pick Assassin only for the paralyzing Death Attack and Hips. The Assassin could have a much more interesting spellbook imo, with an at least half decent duration and CL.

We are looking in to BG and Assassin CL, but the only way for them to get a new spellbook would have been to implement Rasael's spellbook changes when the big March update of last year went in. So it is unlikely they will get true spellbooks, but it is possible they will get something to at least help with their existing spells. That said, both classes offer some good stuff outside of spellbooks and the spells are really just a bonus, not something to base a character off of.

[Vesgar]

We are looking in to BG and Assassin CL, but the only way for them to get a new spellbook would have been to implement Rasael's spellbook changes when the big March update of last year went in. So it is unlikely they will get true spellbooks, but it is possible they will get something to at least help with their existing spells. That said, both classes offer some good stuff outside of spellbooks and the spells are really just a bonus, not something to base a character off of.

That's exactly why I'm happy with my character, spells are just there as flavoring.

Also it's great news to see that there will be changes on the bg/asn front, maybe I'll have to rcr to get that Practiced Spellcaster feat for my assassin.

[chad878262]

Also it's great news to see that there will MIGHT be changes on the bg/asn front, maybe I'll have to rcr to get that Practiced Spellcaster feat for my assassin.

Fixed..

no promises, we are simply discussing it. I wouldn't RCR until it is actually announced if we will do anything and what it will be..