Evasion - Not in Heavy/Medium Armor

[Vogar Eol]

That other thread keeps bringing up evasion, and how it should not function in medium or heavy armor, nor while encumbered. Just starting a separate topic to discuss this.

[Calodan]

Even though I have a FvS with Mith FP people should realize that if you still want AC up to -1 of Mith FP you can just wear a Mith BP instead. Now you get your evasion and EW and whatnot no issues.

GO AHEAD AND FIX IT I DARE YA! THERE IS A WAY AND A WILL TO CIRCUMVENT THOSE PLAYERS WANTS AND NEEDS AND LAUGH TO THE BANK!!! -1 AC means nothing to a FvS MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAA

[chad878262]

-1 AC and - AB/Damage because in order for the MBP to have -1 AC over MFP you need 20 DEX vs. 16. So instead of 13 +3 for max AC, which is easy to get now you need 16/17 DEX for max AC which in most cases is costing 2/3 points per bump. This will in turn reduce the ability to get to 21 STR/CHA for EDM as well as simply reducing STR at least a couple of points in order to gain max AC.

That said, 2 or 3 points of AC still means very little, so a FS (or bard or whatever) can likely go ahead and keep DEX at 16 modified and deal with 3 points lower AC over MFP.

[Vogar Eol]

Chad is right. It would put even an Aasimir into the starved tight build position other races have now. I see that as a good change, because it actually requires a trade off.

[Calodan]

-1 AC and - AB/Damage because in order for the MBP to have -1 AC over MFP you need 20 DEX vs. 16. So instead of 13 +3 for max AC, which is easy to get now you need 16/17 DEX for max AC which in most cases is costing 2/3 points per bump. This will in turn reduce the ability to get to 21 STR/CHA for EDM as well as simply reducing STR at least a couple of points in order to gain max AC.

That said, 2 or 3 points of AC still means very little, so a FS (or bard or whatever) can likely go ahead and keep DEX at 16 modified and deal with 3 points lower AC over MFP.

Which in turn means nothing to a FvS with DP and other spells for AB. I still win and other builds lose.

[Sputnik]

I understand that in PnP evasion isn't useable in medium or heavy armor. Fair enough.
This game(and by extension server) as mentioned many tmes before, is NOT PnP.

I get that some people want to curb powerbuilding and balance things out a bit. Not so bad in my opinion, atleast in moderation.

Here's the squeeze: The builds that this will hurt the most is the classic armored melee types. By this I mean non-caster Fighters, Men-at-Arms and even Barbarians to an extent. There may be others I'm forgetting.. please don't crucify me! You know the archetype..High Strength and Constitution builds that bust down doors and face the enemy head on. No spellcasting other than UMD. <== Don't judge... it's necessary!

These builds already struggle with a lot of PVE content. Even powerbuilt, well-geared toons with these builds struggle. Not saying struggling is a bad thing either! I'm saying that the builds this 'fix' is intended to balance already don't struggle. You want to L2P? Play one of these.. the lessons will come quick after the first few levels, where you'll initially have the advantage. You'll learn lots about magic through these 'lessons' too, believe me!

The counters you'll pick up using this type of build will be gear and consumables. Both will cost a lot of gold and will take time to accumulate. Luckily, your high Strength allows you to sell literally tonnes of loot. This SOMEWHAT offsets the cost of the aforementioned expenses, but requires a decent time investment to loot. The pont is.. the melee casters this is intended to 'nerf' aren't going to feel it. They can cast another Regenerate, another Divine Power, pop another EDM to compensate for the fewer hits they'll land as a consequence of not having expose. The builds relying on use/day gear and cosummables mostly can't... not cheaply atleast!

This will really dig into both the enjoyment and profits of such toons.
So much so that I think it will be the last straw for many of these bottom-rungers.
Gone will be the days of the armored swordsman bravely holding the line, or crawling through dungeons and caves to find treasure.. ::sigh::

My 2cents.

ps. 1 out of 6 of my toons is this archetype. So yes, there may be some bias in my opinion. However, I'm very well-geared and have accumulated a lot of gold over time. My toon is powerbuilt as well. All of this came with time and experience... I'm thinking of people who don't have the luxury of having been here for a long time or who may not have played as much.

/rant

[Invoker]

-1 AC and - AB/Damage because in order for the MBP to have -1 AC over MFP you need 20 DEX vs. 16. So instead of 13 +3 for max AC, which is easy to get now you need 16/17 DEX for max AC which in most cases is costing 2/3 points per bump. This will in turn reduce the ability to get to 21 STR/CHA for EDM as well as simply reducing STR at least a couple of points in order to gain max AC.

That said, 2 or 3 points of AC still means very little, so a FS (or bard or whatever) can likely go ahead and keep DEX at 16 modified and deal with 3 points lower AC over MFP.

Which in turn means nothing to a FvS with DP and other spells for AB. I still win and other builds lose.

You perfectly know that -2 AC and other QoL fixes would be far from destructive, but also far from meaningless. There are already other character types that perform exactly like you (better in some respects, worse in others).

Unless, of course, this is your twin brother posting:

Agreed. Although Kory does rely quite a bit on being able to knock down monster AC by at least 6 to be effective. Which at that point I am arguing for myself in a wide world of people. So whatever. Will enjoy it while it lasts then if and when it happens will retire Kory since it will be pretty useless then. I like adventure RP and my PC being able to do some pretty epic stuff when he can no longer do that then it is time to retire.

Because it states exactly the contrary with respect to the points you are trying to make in this thread.

[Calodan]

-1 AC and - AB/Damage because in order for the MBP to have -1 AC over MFP you need 20 DEX vs. 16. So instead of 13 +3 for max AC, which is easy to get now you need 16/17 DEX for max AC which in most cases is costing 2/3 points per bump. This will in turn reduce the ability to get to 21 STR/CHA for EDM as well as simply reducing STR at least a couple of points in order to gain max AC.

That said, 2 or 3 points of AC still means very little, so a FS (or bard or whatever) can likely go ahead and keep DEX at 16 modified and deal with 3 points lower AC over MFP.

Which in turn means nothing to a FvS with DP and other spells for AB. I still win and other builds lose.

You perfectly know that -2 AC and other QoL fixes would be far from destructive, but also far from meaningless. There are already other character types that perform exactly like you (better in some respects, worse in others).

Unless, of course, this is your twin brother posting:

Agreed. Although Kory does rely quite a bit on being able to knock down monster AC by at least 6 to be effective. Which at that point I am arguing for myself in a wide world of people. So whatever. Will enjoy it while it lasts then if and when it happens will retire Kory since it will be pretty useless then. I like adventure RP and my PC being able to do some pretty epic stuff when he can no longer do that then it is time to retire.

Because it states exactly the contrary with respect to the points you are trying to make in this thread.

Oh I see what you did there.... good point! Ha ha. Me and my crazy....Yeah well I guess I will be using DP a lot more now then. Will drop the two feats for EW and just get more STR or something else maybe even RCR into a true Cheese build and just drop Rogue I have for some EDM Cheese instead and just roll through content like no tomorrow anyway. Who needs evasion with Greater Sanctuary and EDM anyway? Sanct + Buff + EDM = Win in any situation except DM Wagner events at which point you are screwed anyway so just deal with it.

[Diamore]

This is simple, it shouldn't be active when in medium or heavy armour. I don't see a counter point.

"It doesn't stop powerbuild X" is not a reason to avoid making it work as it was intended to.

[Marathados]

+1 for evasion in light or no armor only

[Young Werther]

How does a man in a metal suit dodge lightning strikes anyway. Let them keep tumble though. I need my full plate acrobatics.

[Tantive]

Tumble should be kept I agree!

[SBlack]

Tumble should be kept I agree!

Nice educational Vid. Should dispel some of the myths of fighting in heavy armor.

Fantasy games aren't realistic. If speaking of realism, 150lb soldiers carry 80 lbs of gear around with them. Imagine some of the very strong American football players wearing full plate. A lot of them use 40lb-100lb weighted vests for training and the weight is distributed along the torso only marginally affecting their agility. Now imagine a character with fantasy strength who can carry 500 lbs of gear. Full plate to them isn't going to slow them down one iota. And what about magical full plate 10% of weight? In a 'perfect' game strength would play a large part in Dex mod. A very weak 7 str Halfling would not be able to dodge in a chain shirt while a 22 str human would easily be able to dodge and use their full agility AKA dex mod even in full plate.

If you want to use a logic or realism argument, the only change that is logical for evasion to be toggled off based on carrying capacity.

It's been mentioned repeatedly that folk want to nerf certain divine caster, EDM, expose weakness builds. What is concerning to me is that people are willing to nerf strength and con build fighter, barbarian, man at arms, clerics, etc. and otherwise builds that are mediocre as collateral damage to do so. In changes there is always fallout in that some players of mediocre builds will no longer enjoy playing their characters anymore. Are people really that crass that they refuse to consider other people's enjoyment of the game?

[Calodan]

Tumble should be kept I agree!

Nice educational Vid. Should dispel some of the myths of fighting in heavy armor.

Fantasy games aren't realistic. If speaking of realism, 150lb soldiers carry 80 lbs of gear around with them. Imagine some of the very strong American football players wearing full plate. A lot of them use 40lb-100lb weighted vests for training and the weight is distributed along the torso only marginally affecting their agility. Now imagine a character with fantasy strength who can carry 500 lbs of gear. Full plate to them isn't going to slow them down one iota. And what about magical full plate 10% of weight? In a 'perfect' game strength would play a large part in Dex mod. A very weak 7 str Halfling would not be able to dodge in a chain shirt while a 22 str human would easily be able to dodge and use their full agility AKA dex mod even in full plate.

If you want to use a logic or realism argument, the only change that is logical for evasion to be toggled off based on carrying capacity.

It's been mentioned repeatedly that folk want to nerf certain divine caster, EDM, expose weakness builds. What is concerning to me is that people are willing to nerf strength and con build fighter, barbarian, man at arms, clerics, etc. and otherwise builds that are mediocre as collateral damage to do so. In changes there is always fallout in that some players of mediocre builds will no longer enjoy playing their characters anymore. Are people really that crass that they refuse to consider other people's enjoyment of the game?

Humans suck. You do the math.

[Vogar Eol]

It's been mentioned repeatedly that folk want to nerf.... Are people really that crass that they refuse to consider other people's enjoyment of the game?

Unfortunately, yes. Many seek some ethreal sense of justice, fairness, and/or balance at the expense of other people's enjoyment.