Thayans, Thay, and opinions !

[Valefort]

The Thayan Knight PRC is nowhere weak, feats, saves, key skills, guarding the lord. 1s look and you know it's an excellent defensive class made with teaming in mind, if you make it available to everyone I can assure you it would be taken by a few people.

Why don't you ask for builds if you're not satisfied with what you can think about ? There are plenty of possibilities with Thayan Knight, many great ones were built by Zlaayer who was an hardcore powerbuilder and Thayan Knight player and QC member and ... let's say he knew what he was doing, this class was designed with PvP in mind.

The bonus feat list was updated to what fighter gets btw.

[arakes99]

Why are we even arguing the lore component of having this class when we have completely unbalanced the server with the recent buff to barbarians, none of which is supported by lore. They are not the strongest melee class, bar none with bonus feats and evasion and AC they should never have.

And were seriously going to argue (person) over thayans with the worst PrCs ever made? Show me the point of this. If you want to argue lore, follow it as a server first.

[chad878262]

To clarify, the Thayan Knight was always supposed to get the Fighter bonus feat list, it even says so in the class description. I am pretty sure this is an oversight, with I believe Valefort has rectified after I pointed it out to him about a week ago. However, Endelyon indicated the change wouldn't be live until the next batch update. So there is a small power bump in that the level 3 and 4 bonus feats now include everything on the fighter list.

In addition, when considering the balance of a PRC, full builds have to be considered. F25/TK5 would of course be a horrible build, but add when you consider F/WoD/TK/FB it looks pretty good. You can also mix in Blackguard, Weapon Master, Dervish, Whirling Dervish and even a base class like rogue, ranger, etc. since you're a human. Like Calodan I'm still in the early levels so I may make a comment again months from now, but looking at the numbers, they get +3 to reflex saves, +3 to save vs. fear and +1 to all other saves. In addition, the class unlocks spellcraft for +6 to saves vs. spells as well as giving Epic Skill Focus: Intimidate for RP benefit. Allowing Weapon Focus in any weapon was a good change and fixing the issue with not having Fighter feat list should have been done ages ago, but I'm not sure anyone knew about it (it was never brought up since I've been in QC so I was rather shocked when I ran in to the issue in JEGS).

Point being, the bonuses to saves are pretty nice and on top of this you get two bonus feats and the requirement (Iron will) also unlocks Warrior of Darkness, which IMO aligns quite well with the class. You can end up with ~high 20's in Fortitude and Will and close mid to high teens in reflex saves easy by taking WoD10/TK5, then you can still take 12 Fighter and 3 in any other class you want to either get evasion/EW or EDM or whatever.

So is the issue that it doesn't lay out massive damage like a Weapon Master/Frenzied Berzerker? Or that it's defensive abilities are not as good as a Dwarven Defender? I would be interested in knowing if there is a specific thing that makes the PRC so horrible because unless there is a rule that you can only have one base class + Thayan Knight it seems like it is a solid, easy to qualify for addition to a warrior build.

[Rask]

There sure are a lot of assumptions about my ability to build characters in this thread and my knowledge of lore. Missing the point here...Lets not resort to making baseless assumptions about others and insulting or belittling people to try to discredit them. It makes us all look bad.



I mean if you want to pidgeon hole a character into only 1 or 2 viable builds by all means.

The point is, other guilds do not carry these kinds of restrictions. Thayans do. We have not one, but 2 class restrictions in one guild. Why can't we just make this more welcoming for new people/players and just a bit more fun? The class is not powerful. Being able to take fighter feats will obviously make a difference, but still. The class is by no means particularly powerful. Same goes for RW.

[arakes99]

The only argument here is do we cherry pick when to use lore to restrict people, and not?

I say no. We either stick to our guns on that issue or we don't as a community. Otherwise hypocrisy will be rampant and easily pointed to.

[Calodan]

Its a TERRIBLE class. It does nothing. And Both the builds you just described are weaker than a pure barbarian now, Chad.

This class screws up fighter progression, limiting weapon specialization feats and the bonus's are nothing special. At the end of the day, you folks are cherry picking.

"This is good enough, just because we made this other thing god like, or refuse to fix this, doesn't mean you should complain".

It's not a fair way to conduct balance discussions and the server is so far off base with lore right now. It's a shell game of an argument.

You seem a little angry

Both posts so far have offered little in the way of discussion man. The TK class is not terrible. Compared to some base classes it is weak no doubt but it belongs to the poor melee classes in general for BG which we know melee suffers in. As far as power mechanically among the melee PRCs it is pretty damned good actually.

Besides so far no one has answered for sure what they feel like it could use. I did. I felt if anything giving it more focus on defense. Since it is like a DD in a sense however this comes from me when I built a pretty good defensive build already.

http://nwn2db.com/build/?263607

^^^ Pretty sure that build is not crap. Not going to be a world wrecker on its own but that is not the RP of point of the build. I don't expect it to go and do what my FvS can........

[Rask]

Its a TERRIBLE class. It does nothing. And Both the builds you just described are weaker than a pure barbarian now, Chad.

This class screws up fighter progression, limiting weapon specialization feats and the bonus's are nothing special. At the end of the day, you folks are cherry picking.

"This is good enough, just because we made this other thing god like, or refuse to fix this, doesn't mean you should complain".

It's not a fair way to conduct balance discussions and the server is so far off base with lore right now. It's a shell game of an argument.

You seem a little angry

Both posts so far have offered little in the way of discussion man. The TK class is not terrible. Compared to some base classes it is weak no doubt but it belongs to the poor melee classes in general for BG which we know melee suffers in. As far as power mechanically among the melee PRCs it is pretty damned good actually.

Besides so far no one has answered for sure what they feel like it could use. I did. I felt if anything giving it more focus on defense. Since it is like a DD in a sense however this comes from me when I built a pretty good defensive build already.

http://nwn2db.com/build/?263607

^^^ Pretty sure that build is not crap. Not going to be a world wrecker on its own but that is not the RP of point of the build. I don't expect it to go and do what my FvS can........

'

You are completely missing the point of this thread. Nobody said anything about making it as powerful as a FvS or making anything "godlike".

There are also other reasons we want to lift this restriction outside of this class.

Also that build really isn't -that- good....the AB stinks, and the damage is not great compared to most of the fighter builds out there. Only things it has going for it are high saves and a boatload of HP.

[chad878262]

arakes, I'm really not going to argue with you. If the barbarian changes (which were put in as less than you originally suggested) are so terrible, than isn't a more measured approach called for to ensure similar issues don't arise? I imagine we could pump TK to your specifications, whatever they might be and in 6 months you'll be screaming about how horrible we mucked it up and they are too OP now.

@Rask, if you took my post as saying anything specifically toward you or your building abilities, I apologize, that was not my intent. I was simply calling out that there are many ways Thayan Knight can include other PRCs to have a strong melee build and that we can't just look at TK and determine that it adds nothing. For five levels you get the equivalent of 8 feats (+2 vs. fear, lightning reflexes, guarding the lord, +1 to all saves, SF: Intimidation, Epic SF: Intimidation and 2 bonus fighter feats). Now, SF/ESF is RP only and + 2 vs. fear is a throw away, but +1 to all saves and +2 to reflex is solid, not great. Guarding the Lord has RP value for what they do and the bonus feats can be anything a Fighter would take. So, in the end what have you lost by taking the class?

It should also be noted the DM Decision indicated you can't RP a Thayan Knight without taking levels in the class. It did not say you could not be part of the guild without TK. I assume you can RP a member of the Crimson Guard or other warrior that just isn't a TK, right?

[Rask]

arakes, I'm really not going to argue with you. If the barbarian changes (which were put in as less than you originally suggested) are so terrible, than isn't a more measured approach called for to ensure similar issues don't arise? I imagine we could pump TK to your specifications, whatever they might be and in 6 months you'll be screaming about how horrible we mucked it up and they are too OP now.

@Rask, if you took my post as saying anything specifically toward you or your building abilities, I apologize, that was not my intent. I was simply calling out that there are many ways Thayan Knight can include other PRCs to have a strong melee build and that we can't just look at TK and determine that it adds nothing. For five levels you get the equivalent of 8 feats (+2 vs. fear, lightning reflexes, guarding the lord, +1 to all saves, SF: Intimidation, Epic SF: Intimidation and 2 bonus fighter feats). Now, SF/ESF is RP only and + 2 vs. fear is a throw away, but +1 to all saves and +2 to reflex is solid, not great. Guarding the Lord has RP value for what they do and the bonus feats can be anything a Fighter would take. So, in the end what have you lost by taking the class?

It should also be noted the DM Decision indicated you can't RP a Thayan Knight without taking levels in the class. It did not say you could not be part of the guild without TK. I assume you can RP a member of the Crimson Guard or other warrior that just isn't a TK, right?

What do we lose by taking the class?

Let's put it this way. Put 5 levels of fighter in there instead. See what happens in the long run and tell me the class is still worth it. (Hint: It's not.)

A build is better off taking the 5 levels of fighter than this PRC. Most of the things you get from the PRC are purely RP related with the exception of the saves. Everything else is basically worthless, and you lose out on a bunch of fighter progression feats.

You even say as much in your own post calling many of the abilities throwaways.

[Calodan]

Its a TERRIBLE class. It does nothing. And Both the builds you just described are weaker than a pure barbarian now, Chad.

This class screws up fighter progression, limiting weapon specialization feats and the bonus's are nothing special. At the end of the day, you folks are cherry picking.

"This is good enough, just because we made this other thing god like, or refuse to fix this, doesn't mean you should complain".

It's not a fair way to conduct balance discussions and the server is so far off base with lore right now. It's a shell game of an argument.

You seem a little angry

Both posts so far have offered little in the way of discussion man. The TK class is not terrible. Compared to some base classes it is weak no doubt but it belongs to the poor melee classes in general for BG which we know melee suffers in. As far as power mechanically among the melee PRCs it is pretty damned good actually.

Besides so far no one has answered for sure what they feel like it could use. I did. I felt if anything giving it more focus on defense. Since it is like a DD in a sense however this comes from me when I built a pretty good defensive build already.

http://nwn2db.com/build/?263607

^^^ Pretty sure that build is not crap. Not going to be a world wrecker on its own but that is not the RP of point of the build. I don't expect it to go and do what my FvS can........

'

You are completely missing the point of this thread. Nobody said anything about making it as powerful as a FvS or making anything "godlike".

There are also other reasons we want to lift this restriction outside of this class.

Also that build really isn't -that- good....the AB stinks, and the damage is not great compared to most of the fighter builds out there. Only things it has going for it are high saves and a boatload of HP.

Okay we are done. You just want to rail against the system at this point with little to offer in the way of discussion. I never said it was good. You read the first line and then posted. READ THE WHOLE THING. Again you are just angry. For not being a good build it sure sits and tanks just fine in rolling 40+ XP per kill already....but that is none of my business. BTW Kory has the same AB as this build and kills everything. The only difference from him to this build is the REGEN spell that allows Kory to heal the whole time.......

[Rask]

Calodan, you also keep only addressing one part of the post, which is the mechanics of the PRC. That is only one part of the discussion. If you want to be taken seriously you yourself also need to "read the whole thing" as you say.

But if you "Are done" because people are not agreeing with what you are pointing out, then by all means you are free to leave the discussion, as I think we all can see the point you are attempting to make. And that is what this thread is for, voicing everyone's opinion about the restrictions placed on the guild, as well as the power base of the PRC restrictions.

[chad878262]

but 5 more levels of fighter would get 2 fighter bonus feats, which this class gets. As I said in the first post I made, the concern about the 2 bonus feats not including the fighter list is valid, and has already been addressed by Valefort, it's just waiting on the next batch update. As to the rest, I'm more than happy to have a discussion about what is wrong with the class, but your argument makes no sense to me. Fighters get bonus feats every 2 levels, that's their thing, that is it. In the same five levels TK gives you two bonus feats (though at 3 and 4 instead of 2 and 4) as well as increased saving throws, guarding the lord and some RP feats/abilities. It also unlocks one of the best powerbuild skills in the game and gives high will saves. If you want to tank against bosses this class can help you make your saving throws big time. Throw in classes like WoD or Divine Champion or Blackguard (with high CHA) and your saving throws are outstanding.

[Rask]

but 5 more levels of fighter would get 2 fighter bonus feats, which this class gets. As I said in the first post I made, the concern about the 2 bonus feats not including the fighter list is valid, and has already been addressed by Valefort, it's just waiting on the next batch update. As to the rest, I'm more than happy to have a discussion about what is wrong with the class, but your argument makes no sense to me. Fighters get bonus feats every 2 levels, that's their thing, that is it. In the same five levels TK gives you two bonus feats (though at 3 and 4 instead of 2 and 4) as well as increased saving throws, guarding the lord and some RP feats/abilities. It also unlocks one of the best powerbuild skills in the game and gives high will saves. If you want to tank against bosses this class can help you make your saving throws big time. Throw in classes like WoD or Divine Champion or Blackguard (with high CHA) and your saving throws are outstanding.

Yes, you get two fighter bonus feats. But in the long run, taking these 5 levels can lock you out of certain fighter feats that require a certain amount of fighter levels. That was what I meant when I said "in the long run" because this PRC does not count toward fighter progression. If it did, this discussion about the power of the PRC would be a whole lot different.

Also I do appreciate that the fighter feat list issue was rectified, since that was actually a really big problem with the class and feat selection.

[chad878262]

Deleted at request of moderator.

[Calodan]

but 5 more levels of fighter would get 2 fighter bonus feats, which this class gets. As I said in the first post I made, the concern about the 2 bonus feats not including the fighter list is valid, and has already been addressed by Valefort, it's just waiting on the next batch update. As to the rest, I'm more than happy to have a discussion about what is wrong with the class, but your argument makes no sense to me. Fighters get bonus feats every 2 levels, that's their thing, that is it. In the same five levels TK gives you two bonus feats (though at 3 and 4 instead of 2 and 4) as well as increased saving throws, guarding the lord and some RP feats/abilities. It also unlocks one of the best powerbuild skills in the game and gives high will saves. If you want to tank against bosses this class can help you make your saving throws big time. Throw in classes like WoD or Divine Champion or Blackguard (with high CHA) and your saving throws are outstanding.

It is not about the power then if the feats match Fighter. It is about the not getting the prestige of it without taking it now. So basically the problem is not being able to allow a person to be a TK without a prestige class being taken and an application. THey feel this is restricting their ability to get members and members are required to get DM attention. (This is not a false belief) Thusly allowing the Enclave to make a RP impact as they so desire. Now I do not disagree with it but I do not agree either. I mean once it catches on that TK gives you a Noble name. You are automatically to be treated differently than other PCs in RP by certain NPCs because you are now high born. With the current DM crew I seriously doubt this RP boon will be ignored like it may or may not have been in the past. At this point it will be up to the Thayan enclave to RP and make it a place people want to be in. I mean I do! That is why I applied.