Phantom

[chad878262]

well that should be fixed... will poke Valefort.

[NeOmega]

well that should be fixed... will poke Valefort.

yay. i didnt even check to see if the description was wrong.

with that said, i thnk phantom is fine as is. it is basically an easy HIPSter with limited HIPS. I kind of quit HIPSters because i liked the idea of being able to retreat into the shadows, but did not like the idea of being able to land backstab after backstab. It felt like an "i win" button.

was HIPS ever changed to 15 second cooldown like the description says? or is it still just 5 seconds?

also, i am opposed to giving phantom flurry of blows. as much as id love it, i feel it takes from the monk... ...unless...

the wisdom ac were removed and reserved for monk. i dont see why the phantom is a wis based character at all. weaponmasters have ki energy, and do not require wisdom. hipsters can do so in any armor.

[chad878262]

You might like trying out a pure rogue than man. Hide in the Shadows is granted at level 7 and improves up to 21. It is kind of what HiPS should be IMO. You have to be close to a wall, hill or other object in order for it to work. Starts out taking a couple seconds to go in to shadow with some penalties when enemies are near you and goes to instantly activated at 21. It's fun to play because it requires you to know your surroundings and have a plan for fall back where you will be able to go in to the shadows.

NWN3 or other stuff to give speed boost helps, but delays getting HitS to be instantly activated.

As to flurry of blows your reasoning is sound and it's why we didn't give it to them in the first place. The WIS to AC was to help with the AC Rogues often get from Invisible Blade, but yeah the synergy to it is somewhat weak and takes away from being able to put points in INT for more skills.

[RaiderOne]

What about if ghost strike became a more capable attack strategy instead of being so reliant on sneak attack damage?

example 1; ghost strike grants epic precision for x rounds + wis mod.
example 2; ghost strike grants x for x rounds + wis mod.
example 3; ghost strike is an enemy target ability and does x status effect/damage.

There are plenty of effects that could be applied.

Also ghost step needs cool smoke bomb VFX on use

[NeOmega]

What about if ghost strike became a more capable attack strategy instead of being so reliant on sneak attack damage?

example 1; ghost strike grants epic precision for x rounds + wis mod.
example 2; ghost strike grants x for x rounds + wis mod.
example 3; ghost strike is an enemy target ability and does x status effect/damage.

There are plenty of effects that could be applied.

Also ghost step needs cool smoke bomb VFX on use

and a metal guitar riff

[RaiderOne]

2nd attempt at class revision; less monk more rogue

I've tried to make the class a bit more dynamic in how it can interact with the game. It does less damage than a rogue but can apply status effects with ghost strike. It could also multiclass with a rogue (previous didnt work due to sneak dmg), or with a monk to some degree.

Base Features
Hit die : d6
Base Attack Bonus progression : Medium
Saving throws :
High = Reflex
low = Fortitude, Will
Proficiencies :
Weapons: Simple, Rogue, Monk
Armour: None.
Skill Points : ( 8 + Int modifier ) ×4 at 1st Character level.
Class Skills : Bluff, Craft (alchemy, trap, weapon), Diplomacy, Disguise, Disable Device, Hide, Intimidate, Listen, Lore: Local, Lore: Arcana , Lore: Local, Move Silently, Open Lock, Parry, Search, Sense Motive, Set Trap, Sleight of Hand, Spot, Tumble.


Class Progression

Level Features Gained
1 Ki Power, Death Attack +1d6, Trapfinding
2 Evasion
3 Ghost Strike, Poison Use
4 Uncanny Dodge
5 Death Attack +2d6
6 Unarmoured AC Bonus (As Monk)
7 Hide in the Shadows, Improved Unarmed Strike
8 Improved Uncanny Dodge
9 Ghost Step (Invisible)
10 Death Attack +3d6
11 Epic Precision
12 Greater Ghost Strike
13 Improved Evasion
14 Ghost Step (Ethereal)
15 Death Attack +4d6
16 Ghost Sight
17 Slippery Mind
18
19 Ki Step
20 Death Attack +5d6

Ghost Strike: Standard action target ability that makes a touch attack; on hit the target makes a save vs. an effect such as blinded, stunned, etc. X round duration. Wisdom based DC.

Greater Ghost Strike: As ghost strike but uses the targets lowest save/better dc/better effects/better duration/ multiple effects/ works on different creatures etc, costs 3 ki. Needs testing whatever it does.

Ghost step duration should be 2 round + wisdom modifier (min 2)

Points of note;
½ death attack, no sneak attack
Changed ki effects
No UMD
Epic precision at 11 because the class will never meet the standard requirements to get it

Death attack could go back go back to sneak attack, though maybe ghost strike should flat foot the target if it does?

Thoughts and comments?

[chad878262]

Absolutely not...
Death Attack, that is an Assassin skill and there is no way it should be granted to a Base Class at level 1.

Epic Precision for free at level 11?

You have essentially made a class with Rogue free feats (Evasion, Improved Evasion, Defensive Roll), Assassin ability to paralyze opponents and Monk bonuses, abilities. My thought is this class will still be worse than the current iteration, while being a worse performer. It is still a class that lends itself to Perfect Two Weapon Fighting with finesse weapons and yet with only 5d6 sneak dice the damage will be pitiful.

Really not sure why you are trying to change it so much. I suggest you go at it a different way. Define what you are trying to do and then what in the current class is stopping that and make suggestions based on what you find.

For example:
Issue - multiclassing is impossible since so many levels are required to get the important abilities.
Solution/Suggestion - Move Trap Finding to 4, Evasion to 8, and Improved Evasion to 14.

There are still abilities that benefit a PC going more levels in Phantom. Phantom/Assassin still can't get Epic Dodge without taking another PRC for Defensive Roll. It's still not a dip class that would replace Rogue.

This is a simple change that does not require scrapping the current iteration of the class while solves for the desire of some to allow more multi-classing. However, note that we specifically were trying to set it up so you could not stack too many PRC abilities. Such a change requires hefty review and likely additional nerfs or protections against PRCs such as stacking WIS/DEX/INT to AC by adding Invisible Blade, for example.

I doubt we will give Phantom 8 skill points... They get to turn invisible class levels times per day which is as good as HiPS (better against high spot enemies, worse against those with true seeing) which rogues do not get... Phantom gets an extra offensive/defensive ability, rogues will stay as the main skill monkey.

[RaiderOne]

I guess my goal is to make an alternative to the rogue, like the sorcerer is to the wizard, or the barbarian is to the fighter. There are some basic things you have to have, warriors with high bab, casters with spellcasting progression, 'rogues' with dodge/evasion so i'm throwing some ideas around and seeing what sticks. Fighter/Wizard/Rogue are the easy dips, so I was going for medium investment in multiclassing.

If the class didn't change it would be the end of the world. But I keep looking at it and thinking the current iteration should be a PRC, but then you have assassin, shadow dancer, guild thief, etc so why is it even here?

So looking at some abilities and saying hey this class gets epic precision at 11 but its only got a low sneak damage output is not that bad. Its not like you couldn't go swashbuckler/rogue and get the same effect already. No class is perfect, that's why they (mostly) all get used. You dont have to have access to every ability either and people can multiclass to get those things.

I do like the idea of having more of an offensive attack, just going invisible allot is not exactly the most exciting or interesting of game mechanics.

[chad878262]

The issue is that Rogues and Phantoms have CRAP saves and generally lowish AC. While the Fighter/Barbarian types run around in the 50's-60's in most cases, Rogue types are generally around ~36-45, though some can get higher at least for short durations. Rogues are glass canons, they do loads of damager by having ~12-16d6 sneak dice and landing ~4 sneak attacks out of stealth. If you lower that to 5d6 sneak dice without giving some serious defensive boosts it is just glass without the canon.

[RaiderOne]

Do you not think having ghost strike as an attack type ability in addition to some sneak damage is enough?

[chad878262]

Do you not think having ghost strike as an attack type ability in addition to some sneak damage is enough?

There aren't a whole heck of a lot of enemies on the server that Ghost Strike is useful against, what is it making up for? You're damage is still going to be awful and your defenses aren't any better than a more 'standard' phantom today, but today's Phantom does a LOT more damage.

I also don't see any fun new mechanics... It's still a class that want's HiPS for both defense and offense, it will just likely take far fewer levels of Phantom (and thus have less ki) in order to get it's damage elsewhere. I personally like the sneak attack / HiPS mechanic as it requires you to be smart in many area's where spell casters are. HiPS is far more important as a DEFENSIVE mechanic than an offensive one, since if you get hit with a save or suck spell then you get fugued. There is a lot of strategy to playing a Rogue/Phantom type character because their weaknesses are VERY weak, but their strengths are really strong too. Can be deadly, but also can very easily be dead.

[aaron22]

IMO the ki counter opens the class to fun possibilities. there are optional build paths available because it is an open resource. there could be feats (maybe limited free feats) that could give a short boost defensibly or offensively or against spells etc so that the phantom could have a variety of build options inside the phantom class before taking PrCs into the equation.

ex.
- use ki to increase SR to Phantom level plus wis mod or something for short duration.
- use ki to give instant short duration DR = phantom level/-.
- use ki ability to make next strike does stat damage instead of physical damage.
- use ki to gain fast healing for short duration.
- use ki to make strike effect skill points instead of physical damage.

stuff like that. or not.. just an idea.

[chad878262]

IMO the ki counter opens the class to fun possibilities. there are optional build paths available because it is an open resource. there could be feats (maybe limited free feats) that could give a short boost defensibly or offensively or against spells etc so that the phantom could have a variety of build options inside the phantom class before taking PrCs into the equation.

ex.
- use ki to increase SR to Phantom level plus wis mod or something for short duration.
- use ki to give instant short duration DR = phantom level/-.
- use ki ability to make next strike does stat damage instead of physical damage.
- use ki to gain fast healing for short duration.
- use ki to make strike effect skill points instead of physical damage.

stuff like that. or not.. just an idea.

I like it. It increases their power level, but only based upon the number of ki uses/day. P25/SD5 is still likely the best build, but I think that's fine. Give up your ability to spam sneak attack flurry followed by hide or invisibility to gain some other type of protection. The SR one would likely be better if it was 10+Phantom Level+ WIS, otherwise it will end up about what you get out of an amulet of the witch, and less then you get from a cloak. The others can likely be balanced easy enough in any case. Good suggestion.

[RaiderOne]

There aren't a whole heck of a lot of enemies on the server that Ghost Strike is useful against, what is it making up for? You're damage is still going to be awful and your defenses aren't any better than a more 'standard' phantom today, but today's Phantom does a LOT more damage.

Fair point, fighters get it through feats, barbarian through rage, ranger through favour enemies, rogues sneak damage, etc. I just figure that this class does not need to be a rogue clone so its damage source does not have to be 100% sneak as the rogues is. So making ghost strike an attack ability could be good. I do like the control aspect of some status effects, which may flat foot the target allowing the classes sneak damage (even if its lower) to be used.

[NeOmega]

how about allow ki uses in light armor?
i really dont get the monk ac thing.

also, how about a ki use for 5 rounds of expeditious retreat, instantaneous effect?
1 ki to avoid deflection armor bonus that strike.
2 ki to avoid armor bonuses that strike, (from armor and and enchantments, not natural, deflect or dodge)

this would kind of convey a speedier phantom taking advantage vs a heavily armored foe. it wouldnt be as effective against lighter armored foes.

i dont think they should get UMD.