Your opinion on Rogue bonus feats

[Twotricks]

What do you think about following feats. Good , bad ? Must take ? Or just take something else ... ( like extra sneak attack dice )

Improved Evasion: Only reason to take this one is that if you fail reflex save you take only half damage. However Rogue has incredibly high ref save. And should never fail it. But there is Bug? on this server where rogue takes half damage even though it has regular evasion. Not sure why?

Defensive Roll: Basically save from death. But if rogue is taking damage, he is not in good position anyway. And he will be too close to death for this to actually matter.

Slippery Mind: Held rogue is dead rogue. Wisdom save is rogue biggest weakness. However unlike D&D counterpart that gives Dex as modifier for wis saves, this only lets you reroll again. Which is good. But if your save modifier is bad anyway, it may not be too much of help

Opportunist: This is useless for stealth rogue

Skill Mastery: I know people on this server like bonus on skill rolls. But I think rogue has lot of points in skills allready.

Epic Dodge: For character that is supposed to be hit rarely , this is fantastic. But again. Rogue is not supposed to be hit. This only works against attacks not spells or similar effects. And it goes at cost of 2d6 sneak attack damage ( that you can take instead )


So what you guys think ?

[chad878262]

Improved Evasion: Only reason to take this one is that if you fail reflex save you take only half damage. However Rogue has incredibly high ref save. And should never fail it. But there is Bug? on this server where rogue takes half damage even though it has regular evasion. Not sure why?

Defensive Roll: Basically save from death. But if rogue is taking damage, he is not in good position anyway. And he will be too close to death for this to actually matter.

These two are also required for Epic Dodge. Some think it's overrated, but having played sneaks with and without, I much prefer them with. Fantastic feat for hit and run tactics against melee mobs and bosses.

Epic Dodge: For character that is supposed to be hit rarely , this is fantastic. But again. Rogue is not supposed to be hit. This only works against attacks not spells or similar effects. And it goes at cost of 2d6 sneak attack damage ( that you can take instead )

Well built rogue will have 14d6 sneak damage anyway....16d6 is nice, but for a class that is generally not going to get to the 50+ AC that other melee classes can hit Epic Dodge really can be quite a boon. IMO it is similar to having a feat that grants +5 AC and who would not take that? In some ways it's better (even on a roll of 20 the first attack still misses) and in some ways worse (only effects the first attack so multiple enemies can cause issues), but as I said, it's similar.

Slippery Mind: Held rogue is dead rogue. Wisdom save is rogue biggest weakness. However unlike D&D counterpart that gives Dex as modifier for wis saves, this only lets you reroll again. Which is good. But if your save modifier is bad anyway, it may not be too much of help

It's complete and utter crap for the vast majority of rogue builds. Unless you can get ~20 + will saves having a second roll won't help you. With a Will save of ~9-15 for the vast majority of rogue's are going to fail both roll's, making it a wasted feat.

Opportunist: This is useless for stealth rogue

It's actually a situation where it's decent in turn based pnp, but fails in real time combat/NWN2 engine. In either case, you're right that it's useless for purposes of this server.

Skill Mastery: I know people on this server like bonus on skill rolls. But I think rogue has lot of points in skills allready.

It's the ability to roll a minimum 5 that people like. For folks that get in to DM events a lot it can be a boon. DM's tend to recognize investment in things that have no real impact in PvE/non-DM events. Having Skill Mastery will likely make them look favorably when making an attempt with one of the impacted skills. From a PvE/PvP perspective it is pretty useless, but not totally so. Disable Device can help especially if facing a player with max set trap, for example.


In general, I can't afford to take any besides Crippling Strike, Improved Evasion and Defensive Roll....

[Sun Wukong]

Epic Dodge can be worth it, especially if you are doing those melee Hit and Run tactics. However, I do feel that on a ranged build it is less effective as you should be able to keep that 30 feet distance.

And speaking of that, I would rather spend those Rogue Bonus feats on something entirely different. For example to unlock Self-Concealment since its dexterity requirement has been lowered to 27 according to the wiki. If you spare some of those Rogue Bonus feats gained at levels 10, 13, 16 and 19, you can grab 40% Self-Concealment or Epic Dodge with 30% Self-Concealment.

Not to mention that Rogues gain Hide in the Shadows at level 7, which can act as a replacement for HiPS.

A build like this, for example: http://nwn2db.com/build/?283562 (It is possible to fit in Shadowdancer for HiPS proper.)

[Twotricks]

Im doing melee build.

Tested build with only HiTS, its hard to pull off unless ranged focused.

As for concealment. This could be done via spells. Although certainly having it always on is better.

Still. I am aiming for max Sneak dice. And that would severely hurt that build. While epic dodge would reduce it for 2d6 SD. Which is not horrible trade off

[Sun Wukong]

About that above build, Monk 11/Shadowdancer 3/Rogue 16 is also a possibility, and you could go for a perfect two-weapon fighting Kama build. It would get 5 attacks in the first attack flurry and be far more brutal when flanking in a party. Sneak Attack dice would be kind of low, only 8d6 by default.

But yeah, if you want more sneak attack dice, you should go for more sneak attack dice.

[chad878262]

played something similar...R19/M3/A8 is superior in every way. 14d6 sneak dice and still gets 5 sneak attacks in the first flurry. R16/M3/A8/NWN3 is even better, but doesn't get hips until 30...

[Sun Wukong]

Yeah, but I want my Self-Concealment.

[Twotricks]

I am going straight 9 Assasin / 21 Rogue. Trying to make perfect old school Rogue character.

3 levels in monk might seem cool. But that one additional attack you gain from flurry does not help.

In order to make sneak attacks from hiding , only attacks in first flurry count. http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Flurry

So you need 13 attacks to have 5 attacks in first flurry. My rogue has 10 and with monk it would make 11, which is still only 4 attacks in first flurry.

So only thing gain is one not needed attack and exotic weapon proficiency ... ( perhaps only wisdom AC bonus is interesting ... but wisdom is rogue trash stat )

In any case again losing yet another 2d6 sneak and many skill points. Not sure if its worth it ...

[Sun Wukong]

With perfect two-weapon fighting you would get three additional attacs: one for both hands, and the bugged extra main hand attack. http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Flurry_of_Blows

Thus... 5 attacks in the first flurry.
One handed the situation is: 3 attacks in the first flurry.

Without Flurry of Blows it would be:
Two-Weapon Fighting: 4 attacks in the first flurry.
One handed: 2 attacks in the first flurry.


Anyhow....
Assassin 9, +5d6 sneak attack.
Monk 4, +0d6 sneak attack.
Rogue 17, +9d6 sneak attack.

A choice between...
14d6 * 5 and 16d6 * 4.

[chad878262]

I am going straight 9 Assasin / 21 Rogue. Trying to make perfect old school Rogue character.

Nothing wrong with this at all. pretty Sure Blackman D plays such a build. Nice thing is you can use whatever finesse weapons suit you (or whatever the best you find is). Adding Duelist or Invisible Blade levels can help with AC by adding your INT, which plays well with assassin death attack, but IB is a bit expensive feat wise and makes daggers the best choice for weapons while Duelist loses some of it's benefit when using TWF (though still gets some benefits as well), additionally Duelist doesn't advance sneak dice.

3 levels in monk might seem cool. But that one additional attack you gain from flurry does not help.

In order to make sneak attacks from hiding , only attacks in first flurry count. http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Flurry

It does help. When using PTWF and flurry of blows there is a bugged extra attack. So instead of 10 APR (4 in first flurry) you get 13 APR (5 in first flurry. So, R21/A9 gets 16d6 sneak dice x 4 = ~224 sneak damage coming out of stealth. R19/M3/A8 gets 14d6 sneak dice x 5 = ~245 sneak damage coming out of stealth.

Not saying you should add monk as you are then specifically required to use Kama's in order to use flurry of blows, but an extra 21 average damage is a benefit (plus Avernus has a pair of really nice epic kama's.)

So you need 7 attacks to have 3 attacks in first flurry. My rogue has 5 and with monk it would make six, which is still only 2 attacks in first flurry.

Weather you go R/A or add monk in you want PTWF as it doubles your sneak attacks coming out of stealth. You are a glass cannon, so taking away your damage capacity just makes you glass... Won't be much fun to play. If you want to play a sneak that uses one weapon you should likely go for either a SB/Duelist/Assassin type that gets some sneak damage, but focuses more on INT to have really high DCs on death attacks. SB14/D7/A9 would be good, or if you want evasion SB16/D5/A9. If you want rogue heavy you basically have to either go for a manyshot archer build or a PTWF build, otherwise you won't do enough damage and will find yourself often overwhelmed in PvE.

So only thing gain is one not needed attack and exotic weapon proficiency ... ( perhaps only wisdom AC bonus is interesting ... but wisdom is rogue trash stat )

In any case again losing yet another 2d6 sneak and many skill points. Not sure if its worth it ...

Hoping the above helps you understand a bit more about what is gained. Not trying to push you one way over the other as you should play what you want...Just want to make sure the information you are using to make the decision is accurate. Best of luck and enjoy whatever you decide!

[Twotricks]

It does help. When using PTWF and flurry of blows there is a bugged extra attack. So instead of 10 APR (4 in first flurry) you get 13 APR (5 in first flurry. So, R21/A9 gets 16d6 sneak dice x 4 = ~224 sneak damage coming out of stealth. R19/M3/A8 gets 14d6 sneak dice x 5 = ~245 sneak damage coming out of stealth.

ne way over the other as you should play what you want...Just want to make sure the information you are using to make the decision is accurate. Best of luck and enjoy whatever you decide!

I am using two daggers. So my Assasin rogue gets 5+5 attacks in round ( 4 in first flurry )

In order to get 5 attacks in first flurry you need 13 attacks in round. 3 levels of monk only give you access to flurry. That will add 1 attack + 1 "bugged" attack with perfect fighting.

This is still only 12, and not 13 attacks you need for 5 attack flurry

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But if you are right and you can get 5 attack flurry , this would be benefitial for many reasons beside sneak attack. For example 5 chances to apply assasin poison, instead of 4.

[Thorsson]

Epic Dodge can be worth it, especially if you are doing those melee Hit and Run tactics. However, I do feel that on a ranged build it is less effective as you should be able to keep that 30 feet distance.

You mean that distance, beyond which sneak attacks do not occur?

[chad878262]

It does help. When using PTWF and flurry of blows there is a bugged extra attack. So instead of 10 APR (4 in first flurry) you get 13 APR (5 in first flurry. So, R21/A9 gets 16d6 sneak dice x 4 = ~224 sneak damage coming out of stealth. R19/M3/A8 gets 14d6 sneak dice x 5 = ~245 sneak damage coming out of stealth.

ne way over the other as you should play what you want...Just want to make sure the information you are using to make the decision is accurate. Best of luck and enjoy whatever you decide!

I am using two daggers. So my Assasin rogue gets 5+5 attacks in round ( 4 in first flurry )

In order to get 5 attacks in first flurry you need 13 attacks in round. 3 levels of monk only give you access to flurry. That will add 1 attack + 1 "bugged" attack with perfect fighting.

This is still only 12, and not 13 attacks you need for 5 attack flurry

---

But if you are right and you can get 5 attack flurry , this would be benefitial for many reasons beside sneak attack. For example 5 chances to apply assasin poison, instead of 4.

PTWF gives same number attacks in the of hand as the main hand... this 5+1 (fob) is duplicated in the of hand in addition to a bugged extra attack for a total of 13. this is not theory crafting, it's a fact... and yes the extra death attack is also super nice. Poison is a different mechanic all together.

M11 would get 15 APR so with haste you can actually get a 6th sneak attack while still having 10d6 sneak damage, but that's still less than the 5 x 14d6 (though another death attack).

[Twotricks]

So monk flurry gives +1 attack , 1 attack copied to offhand ( with perfect TWF ) , +1 attack due to bug ?

Well than there is no question 3 levels of monk are must:

That is 5 sneak attacks ( instead of 4 )

Possible bonus on AC trough Wisdom ( that can be easily buffed trough items or spells )

Exotic weapons ( there are better kukris than daggers on server )

Monk move speed bonus - lets not forget that.

...

Trade off

2d6 less sneak damage

3 points less in many skills

Smaller DC on blinding strike

[Valefort]

You can't flurry with kukris, for you that will be kamas, also there's an AB cost to flurry for such a low level monk dip.

Flurry of blows

When unarmored, a monk may strike with a flurry of blows at the expense of accuracy. When doing so, he may make one extra attack in a round at his highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a -2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round. When a monk reaches 5th level, the penalty lessens to -1, and at 9th level it disappears. When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with a kama, a quarterstaff or shuriken

And depending on your level splt you might lose 1 BAB point as well.