Home Brewed PRC: Master of Combat

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Hoihe
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Re: Home Brewed PRC: Master of Combat

Unread post by Hoihe »

Khazrak wrote:Depending on the model, certain axes and maces COULD be wielded with finesse. IRL there's one African axe that definitely qualifies as a finesse weapon. Link!

I'd rather err on the side of seeing more weapons being finesse weapons than err on not enough cool weapons being so myself. Might as well allow any 2H / 1H.

The Danish/English Huscarl/Dane Axe is very nimble, as per Matt Easton.

He describes the Dane axe as having a sort of fuller. It has a very wide cutting blade with a diamond-like cross-section. The axe is light, robust and very effective against lightly armored opponents. It does suffer some compared to a conventional pole-axe versus opponents in mail.
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Khazrak
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Re: Home Brewed PRC: Master of Combat

Unread post by Khazrak »

Yeah - and a medieval warhammer, a REAL medieval warhammer (not the mauls in-game) is light and small. It's thin, punches through armor...

And this is without accounting for special materials, like mithral weapons and the like, or weapons with magically reduced weight - etcetera. And if you were to call a Zweihander or Claymore a finesse weapon, you better darned well consider warmaces/greataxes.

The Danish axe DOES look really light and easy on the hands. Never held one - but I'd like to.
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Hoihe
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Re: Home Brewed PRC: Master of Combat

Unread post by Hoihe »

I think one point on deciding whether something is finesseable or not is its point of balance. As in, if you were to done a standard diagonal cut/strike with it from upper right to lower left, would you be able to arrest the tip on line and change its direction? If yes, finesseable. If however you are forced to carry the strike through and maintain the momentum to transition into your next strike, it's not finesseable.
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Ambaryerno
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Re: Home Brewed PRC: Master of Combat

Unread post by Ambaryerno »

Keep in mind much of this is in HOW the weapon is used. In the case of the long axe, much of its agility comes from choking up and moving the top hand further up the haft and closer to the axe head (rather than gripping further down). This also means it's not going to hit with as much force (which works into the Damage for AB Mode I've been proposing).

And from my studies, the big zweihanders were also more often wielded like spears and used in half-sword, rather than being swung around as if they were a longsword. They also wouldn't have weighed more than about 6lbs MAXIMUM for a combat weapon (DnD's weights are RIDICULOUS in 3.5, and are primarily inspired by the ceremonial stuff that just got carted around for parades). So wielding them in that manner does make for a very quick and agile sword since you're not using a lot of momentum.

As an aside, from personal experience THIS is what makes them DAMN effective against pikes, and why I think the whole thing about these swords being designed for lopping off pikeheads (which dates to a woodcutting made some 200 years after the scene it depicts) is a load of bunk; catch the shaft on the parrierhaken and force it aside, rush in, and stab or slice the guy while you're too close for him to bring his point to bear.

Also, all (or at least most; some may have had different edge geometries for different purposes) axes designed specifically for combat (so this applies to the halberd and poleaxe as well) had a thinner diamond section on the cutting edge more like that of a sword, as opposed to the thicker wedge of the sort of axe your average peasant farmer would have lying around (different edge for different needs, and thinner edges are better for cutting through flesh). So that's not something peculiar to the longaxe.
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Hoihe
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Re: Home Brewed PRC: Master of Combat

Unread post by Hoihe »

Ambaryerno wrote:Keep in mind much of this is in HOW the weapon is used. In the case of the long axe, much of its agility comes from choking up and moving the top hand further up the haft and closer to the axe head (rather than gripping further down). This also means it's not going to hit with as much force (which works into the Damage for AB Mode I've been proposing).

And from my studies, the big zweihanders were also more often wielded like spears and used in half-sword, rather than being swung around as if they were a longsword. They also wouldn't have weighed more than about 6lbs MAXIMUM for a combat weapon (DnD's weights are RIDICULOUS in 3.5, and are primarily inspired by the ceremonial stuff that just got carted around for parades). So wielding them in that manner does make for a very quick and agile sword since you're not using a lot of momentum.

As an aside, from personal experience THIS is what makes them DAMN effective against pikes, and why I think the whole thing about these swords being designed for lopping off pikeheads (which dates to a woodcutting made some 200 years after the scene it depicts) is a load of bunk; catch the shaft on the parrierhaken and force it aside, rush in, and stab or slice the guy while you're too close for him to bring his point to bear.

Also, all (or at least most; some may have had different edge geometries for different purposes) axes designed specifically for combat (so this applies to the halberd and poleaxe as well) had a thinner diamond section on the cutting edge more like that of a sword, as opposed to the thicker wedge of the sort of axe your average peasant farmer would have lying around (different edge for different needs, and thinner edges are better for cutting through flesh). So that's not something peculiar to the longaxe.
While not peculiar, you do have to keep in mind the Dane Axe came before the knightly two handed axe, and may have indeed "set the stage".

Imagine the axe head to be thick where it is affixed to the pole, taper off into thin and wide steel right before the edge where it grows thick again to give some structure. At least, this is what we can assume based on the way these things rusted. It pretty much means dane axes had a "fuller" so to speak.
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Khazrak
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Re: Home Brewed PRC: Master of Combat

Unread post by Khazrak »

Also, this is why I say "Just let all weapons be finesse weapons with Imp. Wpn. Finesse." Saves headache.
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Ambaryerno
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Re: Home Brewed PRC: Master of Combat

Unread post by Ambaryerno »

Here's the thing:

It will be MUCH more likely to get such a feat to pass if there's restrictions tied to it. Previous proposals for Finesse 2H have ultimately failed because it was determined that it risks empowering DEX builds too much. So if we want 2H Finesse, there HAS to be plans to attach some sort of limitation. Whether it's restricting it to a weapon equal to your character's size class (so for a Human it must be a Medium weapon) or limiting it to a specific set of weapons, or whatever.

Anyway, I played around with combining this class and mine. Mainly I replaced the Bonus Feats with some stuff from my progression, and reworked a couple feats. I've dropped some of my outliers that didn't make the cut, but others have been reworked as general feats that would be available to all.
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Master of Arms

The Master of Arms is a professional warrior who, unlike the Weapon Master, seeks to become proficient in a wide variety of equipment rather than focusing on a singular weapon. He can harry his opponent with an accurate barrage of blows interspersed with special techniques to keep his opponent off-balance and never knowing what to expect next.

Requirements

BAB: +6
Feats: Measured Blows, Combat Expertise, Combat Focus
Skills: 4 Ranks Tumble

Hit Dice: D10
BAB: High

Proficiencies
Weapons: Master of Arms

Saves
High: Fortitude, Will
Low: Reflex

Skill Points: 4 + Int Modifier
Class Skills: Bluff, Intimidate, Lore: History, Lore: Local, Lore: Martial, Parry, Taunt, Tumble

Feat Progression

Level 1 Master of Arms
Level 2 1d6 Sneak Attack
Level 3 Parting Strike
Level 4 Combat Vigor
Level 5 Improved Weapon Finesse
Level 6 2d6 Sneak Attack
Level 7 Relentless Barrage
Level 8 Combat Awareness
Level 9 Weapon Synergy
Level 10 Combat Insight, 3d6 Sneak Attack, Combat Strike

New Feat Descriptions

Break Fall (General)
Requirement: DEX 21, Wrestling at Sword
If knocked down, the character can make a second check to escape the knockdown.

Crooked Strike (General)
As a standard action the character makes an attack at his opponent’s hands and wrists that reduces their AB and Damage by -2, for five rounds. The target must make a Fort Save with a DC of 10 + 1/2 the attacker’s level to avoid the penalty. It has a cool down of 1 minute.

Deft Hands (General)
Requirements: Feint, DEX 21
Whenever the character uses Feint against his opponent, if his DEX modifier is higher than his CHA, he may add the difference between his to his Bluff roll.

Improved Weapon Finesse (Class)
A character with this feat is adept at using medium and large weapons subtly and effectively, allowing him to make melee attack rolls with his dexterity modifier instead of strength (if his dexterity is higher than his strength). This feat does not allow the character to use medium or large sized weapons with other abilities that require light or tiny weapons.

Master of Arms (Class)
This proficiency allows the Master of Arms to wield Bastard Sword, Estoc, Falchion, Greatsword, Halberd, Katana, Longsword, Polehammer, Quarterstaff, Scimitar, Spear, Zweihander

Measured Blows (General)
Requirement: Weapon Finesse
The character has trained to make precise attacks when wielding one of his weapons by tightening up his movements and making smaller and quicker strikes, gaining accuracy at the expense of damage. When this mode is activated, he gains +3 AB at the expense of -3 Damage.

Parting Strike (Class)
As a standard action the Master of Arms executes a quick cut to the top of his opponent's scalp to distract him by opening a wound that will bleed into his eyes. The attack is made at his full BAB, and if it connects the target must succeed at a Fort Save with a DC of 10 + the Master’s class level + 1/2 his DEX modifier or be blinded for the next round. It has a cooldown of 1 minute.

Relentless Barrage (Class)
As a standard action, the Master of Arms makes an attack at his full BAB. If it successfully hits, the defender must make a Reflex save modified against a DC of 10 + the Master's class level + 1/2 his DEX modifier. If this roll fails, the target suffers a penalty of -2 to AC and AB for one round per two class levels

Strike of Wrath (General)
As a Full Round Action you execute an attack at your full Base Attack Bonus. If it hits, the defender must succeed a Fort Save with a DC of 10 + 1/2 the attacker’s level, or sustain -2 CON damage for five rounds. It has a cooldown of 2 minutes.

Weapon Synergy (Class)
The Master of Arms has undertaken sufficient study that he has mastered the similarities in how his weapons are wielded, and may apply any bonuses from Weapon Focus, etc. feats from one weapon type, to another weapon of his choice (IE, if he has Weapon Focus and Improved Critical Longsword, he may apply these bonuses when wielding a Polehammer, as well).

Wrestling at Sword (General)
Requirement: DEX 13, Knockdown
If the character’s DEX modifier is higher than his STR, the character may add the difference to his Knockdown checks.

New Equipment

Rondel

Type: Martial Weight: 1.0 pound(s)
Damage Type: Piercing
Size: Tiny
Critical: 20/x3 Damage: 1d4
Bonus Feat: Coup-De-Grâce
Feats: Martial

The rondel is a specialized form of dagger with a long, slender, needle-like point designed specifically for penetrating between the joints of plate armor. Its main purpose is to deliver a coup-de-grâce to fallen opponents or to serve as a knight's last line of personal defense, however it has also become popular among merchants and tradesmen.

Polehammer

Type: Martial Weight: 8.0 pound(s)
Damage Type: Bludgeoning and Piercing
Size: Large
Critical: 20/x3 Damage: 2d6
Feats: Martial

As armor grew heavier, weapons evolved to better contend with it, leading the conventional warhammer to develop into the polehammer. The polehammer consists of a hammer head at the end of a 6-8ft shaft, and is a favored weapon of heavily-armored knights. In addition to the hammer head, polehammers generally featured a reverse spike for punching holes through armor or for hooking knights off their horse, and a spike at the end for thrusting like a spear.

Estoc

Type: Exotic Weight: 4 pounds
Damage Type: Piercing
Size: Medium
Critical: 18-20/x2 Damage: 1d8
Feats: Exotic

A particular form of longsword featuring a narrow, pyramidal blade for thrusting. Unlike the conventional longsword it has no cutting ability, and was designed for piercing the joints in plate armor.

Zweihander

Type: Martial Weight: 10.0 pound(s)
Damage Type: Slashing and Piercing
Size: Large
Critical: 20/x3 Damage: 3d4
Feats: Exotic

The largest and most impressive of swords, these massive blades range as much as 6ft in total length. Because of their size these swords have much more in common with polearms, and are often favored by wealthy mercenaries for contending with pike formations (note: mechanically a Zweihander would be considered a polearm).
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Diamore
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Re: Home Brewed PRC: Master of Combat

Unread post by Diamore »

Just remove the Improved Weapon Finesse then. The class is fine without it, its just a nice piece of flavour that I struggle to see improving on existing builds.

I'm sorry, but getting into real world techniques and effects will get you absolutely nowhere. Honestly, just post suggestions on balance and mechanics that reinforce the theme and move on.

Edit: I should clarify. The idea to use Dexterity to hit with all weapons, by paying for 4 feats and 5 levels of a class that does not improve sneak attacks, including three statistic requirements at 13+ should be an easy pass.

The feat itself is not unbalancing in the least to any build that already uses dexterity, nor is it purely better than a similar strength build. Watering it down to specific weapons defies the point of having a flexible class like this in the first place.

Either leave it as the defining class feature or remove it entirely.
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Sun Wukong
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Re: Home Brewed PRC: Master of Combat

Unread post by Sun Wukong »

Hoihe wrote:Anything that makes swordfighting more graceful over BASH BASH BASH is good.
The PRC does support the BASH-BASH-BASH route too you know. In my books it is kind of like the 'martial' variant of 'Archmage' and 'Hierophant' PRCS for both 'Fighter' and 'Rogue' archetypes in the sense that you can pick and choose what feats best fit your build or character.

On the topic of sneak attack dice, 1d6 at level 5, 2d6 at level 10 would be fine as well. I am somewhat unkeen to drop the sneak attack dice entirely, because the class could go for Feint and Feint kind of requires a bit of Sneak Attack dice to be useful.
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chad878262
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Re: Home Brewed PRC: Master of Combat

Unread post by chad878262 »

We did consider the Improved Weapon Finesse thing previously to allow some Medium weapons to be finesseable. At the time it was deemed low priority with some minor balance concerns that I am sure we could work out. Part of the issue is DEX/INT martial builds are already quite powerful with a simple rapier... Allow them to use a Great Sword with DEX to AB and they do more damage than a STR Build, what is the point of a STR Fighter at that point? A SB5/XXX25 is getting double INT to damage, more skill points thanks to high INT and really only needs ~18 DEX to have more than enough AB to land hits with some investment in feats and/or buffs.

I do not say this to distract from the conversation for MoC, MotLS, or any of the other threads discussing potentially finessing Medium or Large weapons...Only to strike home that there are issues that need to be accounted for if this is something that get's legs/has a great deal of support from the player base. We are not going to introduce something that makes DEX/INT fighter type builds the CLEAR choice as in many ways they are already a bit ahead of a STR based build. Really the only thing a STR based warrior build has going for it is carrying capacity and damage that isn't at least partially nullified against crit immunes. In any other situation the DEX/INT build is at least a little superior.
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Hoihe
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Re: Home Brewed PRC: Master of Combat

Unread post by Hoihe »

chad878262 wrote:We did consider the Improved Weapon Finesse thing previously to allow some Medium weapons to be finesseable. At the time it was deemed low priority with some minor balance concerns that I am sure we could work out. Part of the issue is DEX/INT martial builds are already quite powerful with a simple rapier... Allow them to use a Great Sword with DEX to AB and they do more damage than a STR Build, what is the point of a STR Fighter at that point? A SB5/XXX25 is getting double INT to damage, more skill points thanks to high INT and really only needs ~18 DEX to have more than enough AB to land hits with some investment in feats and/or buffs.

I do not say this to distract from the conversation for MoC, MotLS, or any of the other threads discussing potentially finessing Medium or Large weapons...Only to strike home that there are issues that need to be accounted for if this is something that get's legs/has a great deal of support from the player base. We are not going to introduce something that makes DEX/INT fighter type builds the CLEAR choice as in many ways they are already a bit ahead of a STR based build. Really the only thing a STR based warrior build has going for it is carrying capacity and damage that isn't at least partially nullified against crit immunes. In any other situation the DEX/INT build is at least a little superior.

Swashbuckler int to damage only works with currently finesseable weapons. if a rule was made that it only works for weapons that weapon finesse works on, the whole fears would be gone.

A strength fighter gains AC from strength (ability to carry armor), gains damage from strength, gains attack bonus from strength, gains gold from strength (carry cap).

A Improved finesse fighter would gain AC from either dex or strength (if not light armored, but unless wearing no armor (read duelist), you need strength), AB from dex, damage from int while still needing strength to loot.

An improved finesse fighter does the same thing but much worse.
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Sun Wukong
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Re: Home Brewed PRC: Master of Combat

Unread post by Sun Wukong »

chad878262 wrote:A SB5/XXX25 is getting double INT to damage, more skill points thanks to high INT and really only needs ~18 DEX to have more than enough AB to land hits with some investment in feats and/or buffs.
If I am not mistaken, the Swashbuckler's Insightful Strike only works with light and tiny weapons. Thus it would not, or should not work with medium and large weapons. Thus a Greatsword would only get the 1.5 modifier to their intelligence damage with Combat Insight.

Rapier is 1d6, Greatsword is 2d6, and let us assume both get damage from the intelligence modifier of 10. The Swashbuckler build with Rapier gets 1d6 +20 damage, and the one with Greatsword gets 2d6 + 15 damage. That is 23.5~ against 22~, and the rapier is also more likely to land that critical hit. You could get more damage with the Greatsword once you turn on Power Attack mode, but that also lowers your AB accordingly, which in turn actually encourages you to raise dexterity in favour of intelligence.

And it is not like you could not already have a two-handed, power-attacking build that gets 2.5 * intellingence modifier added to their damage on this exact server at this very same moment. Just make a Halfling or Gnome Swashbuckler/Frenzied Berserker... who either uses a Shortsword/Mace/Handaxe or Monkey Grips that Rapier. A Strongheart halfling is a great race to make such a character, yet such builds have not exactly become common here...

... Which brings us to the high strength builds. This server is a loot grind heavy, where carrying capacity is the king. Stacks of healing kits eat a lion's share of carrying capacity of any character with under 20 strength, and this is a problem even before we consider what the equipment weights. Additionally, a full-plate and a tower shield are the easiest way to get that high armor class, which suits a high strength character just fine. The high strength lets them carry that full-plate, tower shield, and multiple stacks of healing kits while boosting both AB and Damage with just one stat and the related feats. This is not a bad deal at all.

A dexterity/intelligence build can go for PRC AC, which eventually matches what the strength based build has at level 1...
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Hoihe
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Re: Home Brewed PRC: Master of Combat

Unread post by Hoihe »

Sun Wukong wrote:
chad878262 wrote:A SB5/XXX25 is getting double INT to damage, more skill points thanks to high INT and really only needs ~18 DEX to have more than enough AB to land hits with some investment in feats and/or buffs.
If I am not mistaken, the Swashbuckler's Insightful Strike only works with light and tiny weapons. Thus it would not, or should not work with medium and large weapons. Thus a Greatsword would only get the 1.5 modifier to their intelligence damage with Combat Insight.

Rapier is 1d6, Greatsword is 2d6, and let us assume both get damage from the intelligence modifier of 10. The Swashbuckler build with Rapier gets 1d6 +20 damage, and the one with Greatsword gets 2d6 + 15 damage. That is 23.5~ against 22~, and the rapier is also more likely to land that critical hit. You could get more damage with the Greatsword once you turn on Power Attack mode, but that also lowers your AB accordingly, which in turn actually encourages you to raise dexterity in favour of intelligence.

And it is not like you could not already have a two-handed, power-attacking build that gets 2.5 * intellingence modifier added to their damage on this exact server at this very same moment. Just make a Halfling or Gnome Swashbuckler/Frenzied Berserker... who either uses a Shortsword/Mace/Handaxe or Monkey Grips that Rapier. A Strongheart halfling is a great race to make such a character, yet such builds have not exactly become common here...

... Which brings us to the high strength builds. This server is a loot grind heavy, where carrying capacity is the king. Stacks of healing kits eat a lion's share of carrying capacity of any character with under 20 strength, and this is a problem even before we consider what the equipment weights. Additionally, a full-plate and a tower shield are the easiest way to get that high armor class, which suits a high strength character just fine. The high strength lets them carry that full-plate, tower shield, and multiple stacks of healing kits while boosting both AB and Damage with just one stat and the related feats. This is not a bad deal at all.

A dexterity/intelligence build can go for PRC AC, which eventually matches what the strength based build has at level 1...

My 18 strength build with access to near perma bull's strength, wearing mithral breastplate and using longswords with no shields, had trouble with carrying capacity. Granted, I carried changes of clothing and a spare dagger, bow and accessories. However, carrying capacity was a massive pain in the ass, and if not for sorcerer tank, I wouldn't have had near enough AC for the content I was doing.
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Ambaryerno
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Re: Home Brewed PRC: Master of Combat

Unread post by Ambaryerno »

Sun Wukong wrote:
Hoihe wrote:Anything that makes swordfighting more graceful over BASH BASH BASH is good.
The PRC does support the BASH-BASH-BASH route too you know. In my books it is kind of like the 'martial' variant of 'Archmage' and 'Hierophant' PRCS for both 'Fighter' and 'Rogue' archetypes in the sense that you can pick and choose what feats best fit your build or character.

On the topic of sneak attack dice, 1d6 at level 5, 2d6 at level 10 would be fine as well. I am somewhat unkeen to drop the sneak attack dice entirely, because the class could go for Feint and Feint kind of requires a bit of Sneak Attack dice to be useful.
I'll repeat the observation I made before, is that the build as you have it doesn't REALLY facilitate BASH-BASH-BASH. It has a Power Attack requirement, sure, but look at the actual feats in the progression: SA dice and WIS-based stuff. If my "DEX for Feint" feat became a thing (and I know for certain there's very much interest in that) then the SA would favor DEXers.

So as I suggested before: Either drop the PA requirement or replace the Bonus Feats with BASH-based stuff directly in the progression.

However considering there's already plenty of BASH classes I favor the former.
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chad878262
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Re: Home Brewed PRC: Master of Combat

Unread post by chad878262 »

Perhaps I wasn't clear, but DEX/INT builds vs. STR builds was part of the issue. There are other concerns such as interaction with Northlander Hewing and other items. I can of course look at the old QC thread, but I don't really feel like reading through the entire thread to call out all of them. As I said, I was just posting this as an example so that as the discussion proceeds thought can be given to potential issues (and possible solutions). If this is something with enough desirability it could be looked at again, but not for only a few players as it is going off book and homebrew does require a bit more consideration than core rules being implemented. If I recall correctly there wasn't much opposition to implementing, but it is a fair amount of work with regard to interaction with the various other feats/class abilities such as the example provided that must be considered. My personal opinion (which is all I can provide) is that we should be focusing efforts on the various things listed in the 2 year planning document Maecius posted a couple months back and things like this should be considered backlog to be worked when time allows if it is deemed a good change to implement.
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