'Keen Sense' as a Rogue Special Ability

[Calantyr]

Pretty much the topic title. I suggest making the Elven ability 'Keen Sense' a special ability choice when Rogues level up (At 10th, 13th, 16th, and 19th level, etc). Either that or flat out granting the ability at a certain Rogue level.

I think this fits with Rogues being expert trap finders/disarmers etc, also their general utility at finding secrets in general.

[Sun Wukong]

Yeah, sure, why not.

[Steve]

Would a change like this not take Rogue toward a more "homebrew" Class?

Isn't Keen Senses related to that Elves don't sleep and...wait for it...those glorious pointy ears?!?

[Sun Wukong]

It just means that rogues could actually search for traps without slowing the entire party down, if they spend a feat on something that doesn't actually provide actual mechanical prowess. It would be a quality of life change... Like most of the custom home-brewed combat feats we already have on the server.

[Calantyr]

'Quality of life' is precisely the reason why I suggest it. It doesn't make Rogues any more powerful at finding traps, it just means they have an option that allows them to do so without slowing everyone down.

Plus, at a certain point of experience it just makes sense that they could gain such an ability. Trapfinding is a class ability, after all.

[chad878262]

It does make Rogues more powerful. Keen Sense = ALWAYS in spot / listen mode. Making them better spotters, not just trap finders. In addition this is a lore based Elven Racial feature. I would not want to implement this.

[Sun Wukong]

Do tell us more about these 'Rogue' spotter builds.

[Khazrak]

It's a racial feature elves would get for free, and PCs with 10+ levels of Rogue could select specifically with their Rogue bonus feats. Most people would just sooner roll an elf rogue than spend a feat on this, but it'd be nice for those oddballs that want it.

I do see the PvP concern of characters always having full spot/listen, but frankly it just means you have to be careful about sneaking near rogues. Why SHOULDN'T rogues be good at detecting other sneakers? They're, y'know, sneaky shits themselves. And they've got at least 10 rogue levels to accomplish this.

I say allow it. It's a good way of representing a rogue being very good at trapfinding without actually making them mechanically stronger at it. Seems like good RP.

[Sun Wukong]

Typical PvP sneak build has that stealth skill of 80-90(+) that comes from every piece of equipment being dedicated to increase stealth skills, high dexterity, and the stealth increasing feats.

There are few items on this server that offer both stealth and detection skill bonuses, these usually have the moniker 'Stalker' on them. I do not think you can acquire these items for every single slot you have, not any more at least, not to mention how the skill bonuses provided were slightly inferior when compared to the 'dedicated' Detection and Stealth items. Additionally, wisdom is usually a dump stat for rogues, and you are unlikely to squeeze in the detection feats in addition to the necessary combat and stealth improving feats.

Now, while it is a fact that you just need to beat the stealth check once to detect someone, the detection ability comes at the expense of stealth skills. So what would a 'Rogue 10+' realistically have as their listen skill?

33 (Skill Ranks)
-1 (Wisdom ability modifier)
+10~ (From a few 'Stalker' items)
+10 (Wand of Amplify, 5 rounds)
+10 (Wand of Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, 15 rounds)
= 62

62 + 1d20, could hear move silently skill roll that is below 83. But the thing is, those wands have short durations, and take two rounds to apply for a small chance to spot a dedicated sneaker. In essence, the dedicated sneaker gets three rounds of sneak attacks against our 'Spotter' rogue that attempts to buff up his detection skills. And yes, you need both wands to have that chance at detecting, one is not enough without considerable area related bonuses and penalties. I mean, if a rogue survives the initial sneak attack flurry, they would be better off HiPSing away themselves.

Thus, I do lean into the direction of it being a 'Trapfinding' buff rather than a detection one.

[Valefort]

Clairvoyance and amplify don't stack anymore. Nothing short of a fully geared, full spot investment character will detect sneakers.

[chad878262]

Typical PvP sneak build has that stealth skill of 80-90(+) that comes from every piece of equipment being dedicated to increase stealth skills, high dexterity, and the stealth increasing feats.

There are few items on this server that offer both stealth and detection skill bonuses, these usually have the moniker 'Stalker' on them. I do not think you can acquire these items for every single slot you have, not any more at least, not to mention how the skill bonuses provided were slightly inferior when compared to the 'dedicated' Detection and Stealth items. Additionally, wisdom is usually a dump stat for rogues, and you are unlikely to squeeze in the detection feats in addition to the necessary combat and stealth improving feats.

Now, while it is a fact that you just need to beat the stealth check once to detect someone, the detection ability comes at the expense of stealth skills. So what would a 'Rogue 10+' realistically have as their listen skill?

33 (Skill Ranks)
-1 (Wisdom ability modifier)
+10~ (From a few 'Stalker' items)
+10 (Wand of Amplify, 5 rounds)
+10 (Wand of Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, 15 rounds)
= 62

62 + 1d20, could hear move silently skill roll that is below 83. But the thing is, those wands have short durations, and take two rounds to apply for a small chance to spot a dedicated sneaker. In essence, the dedicated sneaker gets three rounds of sneak attacks against our 'Spotter' rogue that attempts to buff up his detection skills. And yes, you need both wands to have that chance at detecting, one is not enough without considerable area related bonuses and penalties. I mean, if a rogue survives the initial sneak attack flurry, they would be better off HiPSing away themselves.

Thus, I do lean into the direction of it being a 'Trapfinding' buff rather than a detection one.

Not really how stealth and spot mechanics work. If the spotter has a score within 20 points of the sneak they will eventually see them in some cases. Keen Sense exacerbates this issue. In any case, if a rogue is looking for traps they should not be speed running anyway. Even if they did in most cases someone would hit the trap and trigger it before you could type "Stop!"

[Khazrak]

Even if they did in most cases someone would hit the trap and trigger it before you could type "Stop!"

Not that I'm aware of. When the rogue sees it, the party sees it is my experience. My characters never see traps but when I'm with a rogue suddenly I become the all-seeing-eye of red squares. Just need the rogue near the front, near the tank.

[Sun Wukong]

Clairvoyance and amplify don't stack anymore. Nothing short of a fully geared, full spot investment character will detect sneakers.

Ah, thanks for letting me know.

[Thorsson]

Maybe Fighters should get Dwarven abilities as a Fighter Feat. Wizards could get Drow abilities and Clerics Grey Orc? I could go on, but you prolly get the point...

[Dragonslayer]

I'd have to vote no. It's very much a racial feat, and is an inherent part of elven biology, along with not sleeping, being resistant to enchantment, and in general being an [poopie face.]

I get the reason for wanting to add it, but it'd be like fishing with dynamite.