Is 3 Levels -by 20- Necessary?

[Flights of Fantasy]

If the three rules by 20 rule did not exist my Wizard would have 1 level of cleric to use all cleric scrolls, 1 level of shadow dancer for hips, one level of druid to use all druid scrolls, one level of rogue to get all the skills as class skills and practiced spellcaster to loose no casters levels.

It's probably a good rule.

I agree. That's why I like the 3 class rule. The topic is focusing on whether the "by 20" part is necessary and/or could be adjusted to allow for more customization without enabling power builds that upset the balance. Others have mentioned that a change could also make it so DMs don't have to spend time checking builds.

I still think my "by 21" is still viable if not a complete answer. I haven't seen a build following this adjustment that's over-powered yet. I also just noticed that both sides of the rule are divisible by three (21/3=7/9/3=3). Got to love the rule of 3 in every story.

BUT I just thought of something better. Adjust all classes (Base & PrC) so the benefits of the class aren't received until class level 3 (Power by 3). That includes class feats, bonus feats, special abilities, and companions. Spell casting & weapon/armor feats should remain unchanged because they're necessary to get through levels 1 & 2. Though it wouldn't matter if players received enough XP to reach character level 3 after character creation. You can even script it so characters don't receive the XP until after they leave the Nexus IF their current total XP is below 100.

It's almost perfect because it has the same effect of the 20 by 3 rule without needing any monitoring. Players can choose to take only 1 level in a class and hold off if they want, but they're not going to get any benefit from it until they reach class level 3. Class levels 1 & 2 can even be RPed as the training stage where the character is learning the basics of the class before hard work pays off at class level 3. Better yet, RCRs shouldn't be required because the 3 by 20 rule has prepped for it.

There's only three (ironic) potential problems I see. First, is it possible? I recall being on a server that moved HiPS on Shadow Dancers to a later class level. (Was it this one?) Second, current builds that haven't taken their third class level yet. I presume they'll keep the feats they've already gained. The 3 by 20 rule will be kept for a time, but there's still the possibility of the server flagging the characters as illegal. Third, I don't think you can do anything about skills. I'm guessing they're hard coded, so people could still spread out rogue levels. Ideally you make it so no class receives skill points until class level 3. They then receive their skill points for class levels 1 - 3. This would further encourage the training role play.

What does everyone else think?

[chad878262]

We are not likely to change the rule from 3b20 to 3b21 in my opinion. Simply put you can always come up with a new build that would only be possible with 3b22 or 3b24 or whatever. Any rule in place will always create challenges in building. Even the vanilla rules that shipped with NWN2 have their own limitations (4 classes, 30 levels, alignment/racial/skill/feat requirements/etc.) The 3b20 rule has it's own additional/unique challenges especially when considering classes like Weapon Master, Bladesinger, Archmage and other high feat requirement PRC's or classes like Shadow Dancer for a build that doesn't have hide/ms/tumble as class skills or for non DEX races thanks to the 19 DEX requirement.

Some like the rule, some do not, but it does offer specifically unique challenges in building out a character for the server. If it were to be removed or changed it would likely just go to 3b30, accepting the fact that it will increase power building quite a bit in multiple regards (4 levels of Divine Champion for +2 Wisdom for Clerics, Spirit Shamans and Monks, 4 levels of Fighter for 3 Epic Feats, multiple builds that have to delay HiPS to epics no longer need to do so, etc.)

Just to call this out again, this is all in my opinion, not official staff statement. I just don't see the purpose behind changing a rule to 3b21 for one or a few types of builds that will become available. It just begs the question "what about x/y/z builds that I can only make if it's 3b22?" so would be more trouble than it's worth.

[Calodan]

We are not likely to change the rule from 3b20 to 3b21 in my opinion. Simply put you can always come up with a new build that would only be possible with 3b22 or 3b24 or whatever. Any rule in place will always create challenges in building. Even the vanilla rules that shipped with NWN2 have their own limitations (4 classes, 30 levels, alignment/racial/skill/feat requirements/etc.) The 3b20 rule has it's own additional/unique challenges especially when considering classes like Weapon Master, Bladesinger, Archmage and other high feat requirement PRC's or classes like Shadow Dancer for a build that doesn't have hide/ms/tumble as class skills or for non DEX races thanks to the 19 DEX requirement.

Some like the rule, some do not, but it does offer specifically unique challenges in building out a character for the server. If it were to be removed or changed it would likely just go to 3b30, accepting the fact that it will increase power building quite a bit in multiple regards (4 levels of Divine Champion for +2 Wisdom for Clerics, Spirit Shamans and Monks, 4 levels of Fighter for 3 Epic Feats, multiple builds that have to delay HiPS to epics no longer need to do so, etc.)

Just to call this out again, this is all in my opinion, not official staff statement. I just don't see the purpose behind changing a rule to 3b21 for one or a few types of builds that will become available. It just begs the question "what about x/y/z builds that I can only make if it's 3b22?" so would be more trouble than it's worth.

I have to agree here on this point. If any change were made I would prefer the 3b30. I agree that 3b is needed for curbing the TRUE CHEESE BUILDS. 3b is at least believable to be a small degree of knowledge in the class taken. 1 level is like yeah I tried that for like 2 seconds but it was not for me.....

[aaron22]

1 level is like yeah I tried that for like 2 seconds but it was not for me.....

add: but look at this awesome epic stuff i can do with that 2 seconds.

[Flights of Fantasy]

I think 3by30 is better as well, but a point was made about it not really being important to hit level 30. 3by21 would be able to achieve the same while allowing PCs to use there last non-epic feat to quality for a PrC while having room to get the needed 3 class levels as they hit 21.

What about my other idea? Any comments at all? Am I missing some limitation of the NWN2 engine? If it can be done, it'd remove the need for DMs to monitors builds at all.

[joleda]

3-by-30 would make things worse. It allows someone to take the first level of Fighter in epic levels to get a free epic level feat. Take a second level of Fighter for another epic level feat and never touch Fighter again. 3-by-30 would increase the power of melee casters, and casters in general. We don't need to give caster more power.

If the 3-by-30 rule is implemented, then I would highly advise removing Practiced Spellcaster, or something else just as dramatic. Seriously. I honestly think magic should require full devotion.

[Flights of Fantasy]

No, they would have to take their 3rd level of fighter eventually. They can put it off until 30, but it will happen sooner or later. And as for using the bonus feat in epic levels, can’t it be adjusted so only non-epic feats can be selected from the bonus list? I remember playing on a server that nerfed DC bonus feats in a similar way.

[chad878262]

The issue with your idea of moving back benefits is it depowers melee/non-caster classes. If Fighters don't get their first bonus feat until 4 they are losing 2 feats (at 1 and 2) for example. Some things could probably be looked at similar to how Swashbuckler Insightful Strike was moved to 5, but there are still things that simply make it a power-up.

Currently, as an example you can make a R16/A8/M3/NWN3 which is a very powerful sneak attack character. However, in order to get Epic Dodge you have to delay A8 (HiPS) to level 30. Instead many players would chose to go R19/A8/M3 which gains a Rogue bonus feat in epics, but loses NWN high BAB and 10% movement increase (which is a huge deal for sneak build). 3b30 would mean you could get Epic Dodge while taking NWN3 in your build, thus giving a power-up to sneaks.

Any change will have consequences that have to be considered in totality. While some still find PvE challenging it would be difficult to argue that it has not gotten a lot easier in the past couple years. Continually empowering characters will also require rebalancing the environment which could be more effort than we have resources.

[niapet]

Stop the Leveling at level 20.

That would make the server more uniqe and bit closer to pnp in terms of power of a character

It is bit too late for that train... But could we go back in time... The Original Baldur's Gate with the Tales of The Sword Coast expansion had the maximum experience cap of 161,000. Such a cap on NWN2 would result in level 18 characters at the most. Now, if all content was also designed with that in mind, it would not be all that terrible, I suppose. Multiclassing would have a real cost for casters, and the ECL races would have their fair share of flaws. It would be something quite different.

I agree with this. If you guys ever did decide to do a vault wipe, or perhaps a second server with an empty vault, you should definitely consider an XP cap to limit to level 20. This woild make multiclassung have a cost and ECL would also have a real cost as well. An ECL +2 would be limited to level 18 for instance.

[Flights of Fantasy]

If Fighters don't get their first bonus feat until 4 they are losing 2 feats (at 1 and 2) for example.

First two bonus feats would be at level 3, not 4. So instead of getting one bonus feat at character level 1 and again at character level 2, they get 2 bonus feats at character level 3. They don't loose anything. They just have to wait longer (train harder) for the payoff. After level 3, the class progresses normally.

[chad878262]

If Fighters don't get their first bonus feat until 4 they are losing 2 feats (at 1 and 2) for example.

First two bonus feats would be at level 3, not 4. So instead of getting one bonus feat at character level 1 and again at character level 2, they get 2 bonus feats at character level 3. They don't loose anything. They just have to wait longer (train harder) for the payoff. After level 3, the class progresses normally.

Not exactly... This still would mean casters get 2 bonus feats for a 3 level dip while 'true' fighters are depowered in the early levels. Not exactly friendly to new players trying their first PC on the server while doing nothing to make casters avoid the class. Plus by going to 3b30 they are still getting those 2 bonus feats in the epic levels, which just isn't a good way to go IMO.

[CommanderKrieg]

My cheesiest builds have been stopped by 3 before 30. Especially with dragon deciple.

[Flights of Fantasy]

Not exactly... This still would mean casters get 2 bonus feats for a 3 level dip while 'true' fighters are depowered in the early levels. Not exactly friendly to new players trying their first PC on the server while doing nothing to make casters avoid the class. Plus by going to 3b30 they are still getting those 2 bonus feats in the epic levels, which just isn't a good way to go IMO.

That's not necessarily true. Like I pointed out earlier with the DC example, I believe you can make it so those first two bonus feats can't be used for epic feats even if taken during epic levels. Bonus feats after level 3 then gain access to epic feats as they do now.

As for early levels, that would be the same for just about every class. Though some may need a temporary form of penalty to be as "weak" as the other classes. Sorcerers, for example, would only loose access to their familiar until level 3. So maybe they are stuck with a fixed 25% spell failure until they hit 3. The other option is to give PCs that exit the Nexus with less than 100 XP enough XP to hit character level 3. That way they can reach class level 3 of their base class from the beginning and avoid the startup difficulty.

[Calodan]

My cheesiest builds have been stopped by 3 before 30. Especially with dragon deciple.

That is what I am saying! as long as we have 3b in the equation then the true cheese ball builds are curbed. Throw in the dispel fix the need to go full 30CL is real on this server so just going GISH will cost you on this server alone even under 3b20. Yeah there might be some slight power bumps in a few builds but otherwise the entirety of the server will stay intact in my opinion.

[Calodan]

Not exactly... This still would mean casters get 2 bonus feats for a 3 level dip while 'true' fighters are depowered in the early levels. Not exactly friendly to new players trying their first PC on the server while doing nothing to make casters avoid the class. Plus by going to 3b30 they are still getting those 2 bonus feats in the epic levels, which just isn't a good way to go IMO.

That's not necessarily true. Like I pointed out earlier with the DC example, I believe you can make it so those first two bonus feats can't be used for epic feats even if taken during epic levels. Bonus feats after level 3 then gain access to epic feats as they do now.

As for early levels, that would be the same for just about every class. Though some may need a temporary form of penalty to be as "weak" as the other classes. Sorcerers, for example, would only loose access to their familiar until level 3. So maybe they are stuck with a fixed 25% spell failure until they hit 3. The other option is to give PCs that exit the Nexus with less than 100 XP enough XP to hit character level 3. That way they can reach class level 3 of their base class from the beginning and avoid the startup difficulty.

I still do not get why this is an issue? For most builds that would utilize the extra feats by taking a couple extra Great Strength for 1AB.......Give me an example of where those feats are utilized that gives the kind of boosts that you feel you need to limit where that feat is taken? It is one thing to say thing is so. It is another to provide an actual example for us to see.