To HIPS or not to HIPS

[Valefort]

65 is enough to be considered invisible by 95% of the mobs.

[Invoker]

Now, back on topic,

This was, and always has been "on topic".

is a modest (max 65) hide / MS enough to make it useful? What's the main uses when not using it offensively, as an escape I take it?

You keep asking that, but your logic is flawed. "Escaping" depends on those hunting you as much as you trying to escape. 65 hide/ms will be OK against regular PvE, the kind you should need no escape from. Several bosses will spot you easily, so be aware of that and plan accordingly. Any player with spot/listen maxed and no equipment will have some chances to detect you due to the negative modifiers you will inevitably get, especially while you learn to play around with stealth. Characters like a Wisdom Monk, a Dragon Druid, Rangers, several types of Spirit Shamans and most Bards, for instance, will detect you with ease.

If that is not clear enough, let me know and I will elaborate.

[Quidix]

I see - that does make sense, thank you both.

Feels like it can most readily be used when it's not needed, and likely to fail when it's actually needed then...

[Valefort]

Breaking spell lock alone is pretty invaluable, especially since you have low will you know what to dodge. As for players who simply have maxed ranks and no gear I disagree with Invoker : they have absolutely no chance to detect you no matter the conditions, the penalties are not big enough for that, but they might be in detection reach if they use a couple of spells, barely.

However penalties to hide/ms are very hard to know as they're not explained anywhere, in my experience they're barely noticeable though. If the max is 10 i'd be surprised, and 65-10 = 55 compared to 33 .. not a chance even rolling 1 vs 20.

[chad878262]

65 hide against 33 spot requires a total of +/- 12 bonus/penalties for the spotter to have a (small) chance to spot the hidden character. Move silently is even worse since penalties are applied for the simple act of moving (which is what the skill does!)

All that said, 65 is a serviceable number since most "spotters" think they should be able to spot you simply by maxing spot or listen and put no effort in to getting gear, feats or putting points in WIS. Somehow logic is that someone who puts effort in to getting above average stealth skill should be spotted by an 8 WIS fighter with cross-class spot.

Now, 65 is quite low if you want to be an actual sneak, so don't expect epic mobs with the spotter script to pass you by. However, the spotter script is relatively light so as long as you have an "Oh #$%!" TM button for when you do get spotted you'll be ok.

[Aspect of Sorrow]

it‘s a l2p issue.

I think you and I should just put that in our signature.

[Born2BeWild]

with ~70 hide/ms i was able to be at some kind of meeting at boareskyr bridge undetected, i guess 65 is not much worse.
https://imgur.com/a/or6SJjs

[Invoker]

Breaking spell lock alone is pretty invaluable, especially since you have low will you know what to dodge. As for players who simply have maxed ranks and no gear I disagree with Invoker : they have absolutely no chance to detect you no matter the conditions, the penalties are not big enough for that, but they might be in detection reach if they use a couple of spells, barely.

However penalties to hide/ms are very hard to know as they're not explained anywhere, in my experience they're barely noticeable though. If the max is 10 i'd be surprised, and 65-10 = 55 compared to 33 .. not a chance even rolling 1 vs 20.

Not quite. More like:

Long story short, to be undetectable you need to have hide/move silently 20 point higher than pursuer's listen/spot skills.

its more like 30 pts higher

because you need to beat their d20 roll, which gives you the base +20 and then it is very easy to have at least two negative engine modifiers at any one time; this can be direct negative on you or a bonus to them which is a net negative for you as a sneak

using your own example on the listen bonus, standing still does give +5 listen and moving gets a -5 MS and running gives a -10

so sneaking on someone who isnt moving you already have a -10 along with the d20 and those with camo (stealth run) would have a -15

and if you approach from their side they get another +5 listen...

so yea the gap to be safe gets high

Which means, if the "guy" has by any chance a regen cloak with +2 spot and a +1 spot anywhere as a bonus he doesn't even remember somewhere in the gear, you are not safe at all.

As for the myth of "breaking lock", you do it once. If I can see you the second you go to stealth, you eat the second spell for sure. "Breaking lock" is really powerful when the stealther is safely hidden, and can decide when to come out (which means the caster can do nothing, not even moving, because the HipSer will use that moment to act, confident stealth will be available again when needed).

with ~70 hide/ms i was able to be at some kind of meeting at boareskyr bridge undetected, i guess 65 is not much worse.
https://imgur.com/a/or6SJjs

The difference between 65 and 70 is extremely marked considering how people build and gear on BGTSCC (call it "meta").

Besides, if the spotters can spot up to 68, and you have 69, then that points less makes it "much worse". It's a 0-1 ability. Anything short of complete success means catastrophe 99% of the cases.

[Hendrak]

I am in process leveling an Aasimar WIS Cleric up.

Spot 33 (base) +2 (Race) +2 Alertness +12 WIS modifier = 49 without items or spells.

Do you pick 20s if you active search?

EDIT: Epic Ninja Boots, +4 Dodge AC and +3 Spot = 52 Spot

[Valefort]

Thing is these numbers are not certain at all, their source was always dubious and experience suggest otherwise. Only a very long and tedious testing would clear this for good.

And no you don't get 20 when you active search.

[Snarfy]

Do you pick 20s if you active search?

And no you don't get 20 when you active search.

Well... he will get 20, eventually, since actively searching constantly rolls detection skills... versus the sneaks one roll that applies a static bonus each to hide/MS when stealth mode is engaged.

52 Spot

... is a very good spot score to have. You are guaranteed to, (again)eventually, detect someone with 71 hide... if they roll a 1, and you roll a 20

As to the OP, pretty much what everyone else said. With a moderate hide/MS investment you will be able to easily deal with 80 - 90% of monsters. Epic mobs and decent detection players(with a modicum of skill) will, however, eat you for lunch.

[Sun Wukong]

Now, back on topic, is a modest (max 65) hide / MS enough to make it useful? What's the main uses when not using it offensively, as an escape I take it?

You should be able to sneak through most maps undetected. There can be some random spotter mob that can detect you anywhere, anytime, but for most part you can move around unseen by mobs.

I think my level 21~ cleric had something like 60~ spot, with every piece of detection equipment he had on. Thus, it might not work that well against some or most players. It depends on their build to be honest.


As for other uses. Perhaps in a DM event that is not very hectic, you could request to make a move silently and hide rolls to reach a point on the map. But it really depends on the DM and event.


But the most use you can get out of such skill is bit of in game convenience. You do not have to run through maps with a horde of mobs at your tail, you can sneak through maps to get those weekly quests done, and you can watch TV, or read a book while you do it.


Now, the ability to break line of sight is the biggest perk of the feat, because it can save your bacon time and time again. Perhaps give you some extra damage with Sneak Attack Dice from classes or an item.


Thus whether your stealth investment is worth it, well, it depends on your build actually. If you are happy with your build, sure, why not get HiPS and that stealth. If you think you could get something better instead, go for something better.

[V'rass]

Definitely HIPS.