Monk: Wis bonus to Q'staff damage.

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electric mayhem
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Monk: Wis bonus to Q'staff damage.

Unread post by electric mayhem »

In the interests of adding 'usable' flavour and variety to monk builds.

Would it be possible, and appropriate, to create a feat, or modify Intuitive attack, to add a Monk's wisdom bonus to their damage when wielding a quarterstaff?

But not apply when using fists (they already get enough damage on fists).

Currently monks base dmg @ lvl 30 using fists is a 3d10 (up to 30).
If using a staff it is 2d4 (up to 8).

All bonuses above this base damage is equally in play and available to both Fists and Staff users.
i.e. +4 EB and 1d4 Elemental on Gloves (Fists) is equally available on Staves too.

Also note that fisters get the Adamantium feat to bypass DR. Whereas stave users do not. I'm not advocating for this to change though.

My argument is that mechanically in this game, monks (players) will seldom ever be primarily staff wielders due to the large handicap they are encumbered with by comparison.

In the interests of variety, could we look at improving the option for staff wielding monks please?



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chad878262
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Re: Monk: Wis bonus to Q'staff damage.

Unread post by chad878262 »

Quarter staff gives double strength bonus which can work well for STR based monk/ weapon master builds. F12/M11/WM7 is a thing. AC is lower, but damage is solid and they get 8 APR, 3 at highest bab vs 7 on a first monk. Finally, there are quarters staffs can haveon hit properties with other bonuses whereas the only gloves I've ever seen with on hit properties are relatively weak. QS monk isn't as good overall, but does have strengths.
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electric mayhem
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Re: Monk: Wis bonus to Q'staff damage.

Unread post by electric mayhem »

If you're building a STR build... that's a STR build and Wis barely gets a look in.

If you're building a WIS build... my post still stands.

This is about WIS builds, allowing them to use staves a bit better.

At best, they're looking at a bonus of 8-12 extra damage, which will bring them inline with fists. Depending upon modifier.
But they still lose Adamantium and Deflect.

It's not like we're overpowering them by doing this.



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Born2BeWild
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Re: Monk: Wis bonus to Q'staff damage.

Unread post by Born2BeWild »

1,5xStr and 9 attacks(6 base from 26 bab and 3 from flurry) you mean. With wis to damage you can build something like Spirit shaman/monk/hiero(or hospitaller) on gray orc and get +10 damage from wis with buffs without any loss.
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electric mayhem
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Re: Monk: Wis bonus to Q'staff damage.

Unread post by electric mayhem »

Maybe I didn't make it clear.

This is to couple with Intuitive attack.

Intuitive attack requires 2/3 Monk levels minimum.

And Wis builds typically have 0 to at best +2 str modifier.



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Re: Monk: Wis bonus to Q'staff damage.

Unread post by Hammer_Song »

electric mayhem wrote:fisters
hehehe
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Re: Monk: Wis bonus to Q'staff damage.

Unread post by AlfarinIcebreaker »

Good idea, +1 from me.
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electric mayhem
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Re: Monk: Wis bonus to Q'staff damage.

Unread post by electric mayhem »

That's my point.... we've backed anyone that wants to play a monk... a pure monk... into a corner.
"Though shall use fists, if one wants to perform amicably on the server"

But it's an RP game... right... right? "hello Steve!"



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Theodore01
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Re: Monk: Wis bonus to Q'staff damage.

Unread post by Theodore01 »

electric mayhem wrote:And Wis builds typically have 0 to at best +2 str modifier.
No, just no :shock:


Having played 2 odd staff monk builds, i can say they are doing fine.
As Fiery fist and blazing aura add damage to a staff, that alone makes staff damage quite good. (compared to most non-monk weapons)

Staff Monk20/DC6/F4 with Str18/Wis32(+4item)
http://nwn2db.com/build/?289519

Damage with an eb+4 glove/staff:

d20+4+4(sp+mastery)+4(str)=13~32+d10(fire)+d6(fire)=15~48 (x7)
d8 +4+2(sp)+6(str) =13~22+d10(fire)+d6(fire)=15~38 (x7)

With wis to damage it would be
d8 +4+2(sp)+16(wis)=23~30+d10(fire)+d6(fire)=25~46 (x7)


Then we have CI and AS and vampiric staffs also.

There is no need to improve the staff damage for monks further.
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Steve
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Re: Monk: Wis bonus to Q'staff damage.

Unread post by Steve »

I've just been keeping my mouth shut cause you know how my opinion goes over. :roll: 0:)

That said, I've learned how to make a good quality damage giving Wis Monk.

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Hendrak
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Re: Monk: Wis bonus to Q'staff damage.

Unread post by Hendrak »

If MotLD kit works it would help a bit with the AC problem.

We need more Monk Kits. The only solution ;D Full 20 Monk levels always need E.Prowess and Exp.Weakness regardless if their Dex is low. That are two precious epic feat slots almost always occupied. Kits like MotLD could help with that. And lore offers so many nice Orders to make kits.
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Re: Monk: Wis bonus to Q'staff damage.

Unread post by chad878262 »

Give Monks too many open epic feats would not really be a good thing. They have some very strong feats they can get and some races can already end up with enough WIS for Blazing Aura and enough DEX to get a bit of self concealment. The need for Epic Prowess/Expose Weakness isn't really true in the case of all monk builds, but the benefits of the feats can't be argued. However, is there really a build out there which qualifies for Expose Weakness and isn't better off for taking it?
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electric mayhem
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Re: Monk: Wis bonus to Q'staff damage.

Unread post by electric mayhem »

Theodore01 wrote:
electric mayhem wrote:And Wis builds typically have 0 to at best +2 str modifier.
No, just no :shock:
As Fiery fist and blazing aura add damage to a staff, that alone makes staff damage quite good. (compared to most non-monk weapons)

d8 +4+2(sp)+6(str) =13~22+d10(fire)+d6(fire)=15~38 (x7)

With wis to damage it would be
d8 +4+2(sp)+16(wis)=23~30+d10(fire)+d6(fire)=25~46 (x7)
d8 +4 +2(spec'z) + 3 (16 wis) + 6 (18 STR?) = 23 MAX. There fixed it for you.
Try and show your full working out if you are presenting a mathematical argument.

Those putting points into STR will be better off dmg wise all the time due to the 1.5 coding.
This is about allowing WIS mod to be used at a 1x ratio.
So yes, people can trade STR and Wis either way in the mix, but STR will always win out for those building for it.

Yes... fiery fists and blazing work on ALL monk weapons INC fists. That is NOT the point of the argument.

My point is... let's bring the other monk weapon choices a little more in line with Fists.
By adding Wis modifier, even Half or 2/3rds of the modifier to dmg, it'll certainly help.



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Grog
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Re: Monk: Wis bonus to Q'staff damage.

Unread post by Grog »

More viable variety for builds is always a good thing imo.
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Re: Monk: Wis bonus to Q'staff damage.

Unread post by Sun Wukong »

electric mayhem wrote:In the interests of adding 'usable' flavour and variety to monk builds.
I was not aware that there was such a shortage. I can think of many different ways of creating a dexterity, a wisdom, a strength, and even a constitution based monk that use the weapons themed to a 'monk' in third edition Dungeons and Dragons. Some are more powerful than others, while others are easier to level, and so forth.
electric mayhem wrote:Would it be possible, and appropriate, to create a feat, or modify Intuitive attack, to add a Monk's wisdom bonus to their damage when wielding a quarterstaff?
Possible? Probably. Appropriate? I am not so sure about it...

In a way you are suggesting a feat that would add a Monk's wisdom modifier on top of the base strength modifier as extra damage. In otherwords what you are suggesting is a 'Crossbow Sniper' feat for quarterstaves, a weapon that already gets three additional highest BAB attacks with Greater Flurry of Blows. Not to mention that wisdom opens the path for additional AC, and Blazing Aura for unresisted fire damage.

So how about we imagine that Monk 20/Divine Champion 10 build using either Aasimar, or better yet, Grey Orc as the race. You know, reaching 23 wisdom for Blazing Aura is not difficult with a +2 wisdom race, and with those four Divine Champion feats spent on Great Wisdom. This allows our quarterstaff using monk to freely invest in his strength ability score, which gets the '1.5' multiplier. Throw in Northlander Hewing, and we have the following build:

8 (Quarterstaff Maximised)
+ 4 (Enchantment Bonus)
+ 13 (Strength modifier from base 25 strength with a Belt of Growth for +3)
+ 9 (Northlander Hewing strength modifier damage)
+ 8 (Wisdom Modifier from suggested change, base 23 with a +3 item)
+ 1d10 (Blazing Aura)
= 47.5~

You will get 5 attacks per round, 6 if you apply haste. Turn off Northlander Hewing and your damage is: 35~ a hit, and you get 8-9 hits per round.

Oh, and you have Expose Weakness too. Oh, and you can increase the damage higher, by making use of a Potion of Bull's Strength or +4 item. You have the extra spare epic feat for that. Additionally you could leave out Expose Weakness. Oh, as a monk you also have free Improved Knockdown.
electric mayhem wrote:But not apply when using fists (they already get enough damage on fists).
Currently, there is nothing wrong with the damage output of a Monk 11/Weapon Master 7/Fighter 12. Not to mention that you can spare the feat for Northlander Hewing which helps a ton against critical hit immunities.
electric mayhem wrote:Currently monks base dmg @ lvl 30 using fists is a 3d10 (up to 30).
If using a staff it is 2d4 (up to 8).
At monk level 30, and there are many reasons why a monk might not have all 30 levels, which decreases the damage output. The quarterstaff also has that increased strength modifier damage going on for itself, and it is easier to purchase a decent quarterstaff than it is to find a nice pair of gloves or gauntlets.
electric mayhem wrote:All bonuses above this base damage is equally in play and available to both Fists and Staff users.
i.e. +4 EB and 1d4 Elemental on Gloves (Fists) is equally available on Staves too.
Northlander Hewing, so to speak, doesn't work properly on critical hits. The extra damage is not multiplied, the damage dices are not maximised, and therefore it is possible for a fist user to roll incredibly low and therefore deal less damage on critical hit than with a regular hit. With a staff, this problem is far less evident.

But as for actual item properties, I recall the quarterstaves having a far larger pool of additional properties.
electric mayhem wrote:Also note that fisters get the Adamantium feat to bypass DR. Whereas stave users do not. I'm not advocating for this to change though.
Quarterstaves have access to Cold Iron and Alchemical Silver.
electric mayhem wrote:My argument is that mechanically in this game, monks (players) will seldom ever be primarily staff wielders due to the large handicap they are encumbered with by comparison.
Let us imagine a human monk with base strength of 10. That character is better off using a quarterstaff over unarmed attacks until monk level of 8. At level 8, our monk has 1d10 unarmed damage dice and that is 5.5~ damage on avarage. It is 0.5~ higher than the average damage of a 2d4 quarterstaff.

Should we increase the base strength modifier, then the superiority of the quarterstaff lingers far deeper into the monk level progression. Now, while unarmed damage will always come on top in the long run, it is not by default the best choice.

For example:
A level 30 monk with 30 strength and 3d10 unarmed damage will deal:
26.5~ damage per avarage hit.

While the above level 30 monk with his 30 strength and 2d4 quarterstaff would deal:
20~ damage per avarage hit.

Thus on avarage, the unarmed strike has +6.5~ damage to the quarterstaff even on a high strength build. However, while Adamantine fists are lovely in PvP, a Cold Iron or an Alchemical Silver quarterstaff can actually end up dealing more damage in PvE.
electric mayhem wrote:In the interests of variety, could we look at improving the option for staff wielding monks please?
Now, I am not entirely convinced that there is need to increase monk build variety, as you can make many dexterity, strength, wisdom, or constitution based monk builds that make use of the D&D monk weapons. Oh, as for the the constitution based monk, Monk 11/Fist of the Forest 3/Fighter 12/Anointed Knight 4. You know, Fighter's Weapon Focus feats along side with higher BAB progressions allows you to reach the typical 'pure monk AB' - while you got some DR and/or Fast Healing, and HP pool that allows soaking damage.

But anyhow... should these staff wielding monks be buffed up in one way or another, I just do not think giving wisdom modifier to damage is the right idea or way to do it. I think a better way to do it would be boost 'strength based monks' in general. Whenever people talk of strength based monks, they do complain about the AC. Thus there could be a feat that allows a strength based monk to convert a portion of their strength modifier into AC bonus.

For example: For every 5 levels in the monk class, you are allowed to gain additiona point of AC, but not more than half your strength modifier.

Thus:
A level 5 monk with 18 strength would get +1 AC,
A level 10 monk with 18 strength would get +2 AC,
A level 15 monk with 18 strength would get +2 AC.

How would that sound to you? You would need 30 monk levels and 34 strength to get full +6 to AC.

The simple explantion for the feat would be that your well trained muscles make you generally sturdier, or whatever.
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