missing +4 stat items (STR, CON, CHA)

For Issues, Ideas, or Subjects That Do Not Fit Elsewhere

Moderators: Moderator, DM

chad878262
QC Coordinator
Posts: 9334
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2014 6:55 pm

Re: missing +4 stat items (STR, CON, CHA)

Unread post by chad878262 »

Svabodnik wrote:Considering not wanting to split the potential of +4 STR and CON to two different slots for the above reason, not wanting to split +4 STR and CHA due to EDM, and as the primary casting attribute for Wiz gishes is INT (which already exists in head slot), what would be your thoughts on adding +4 STR/CON/CHA as only head-slot items? It would put Sorc gishes in the same camp as their wizard counterparts, and would keep +4 ability slot as specific as possible (with only +4 DEX gloves and +4 WIS amulet being excluded from the slot, due to them already being available in the game).
Something like this has already been stated as a goal, but no one has submitted a shop with any further +4 stat items as a requested part of that store. I think there is an approved shop with a +4 CHA item (if I recall it was head slot), but no one has had the time to build the shop keeper and put it in game.

There is a second shop that was requested, and recently approved, but it does not include any +4 stat items.

Should additional guilds put requests in and wish one of their (2 or 3?) epic items be a +4 stat item for STR or CON it will be reviewed and considered, but shops take a long time to get in because they do require lore to be written by the submitting guild/group and approved by DMs, mechanical review/approval by QC and then someone with the ability to do so must create the items and the shop. If I recall correctly it took the Red Wizards nearly a year to get their shop in game from initial submission to implementation...

So in case I wasn't clear before (and speaking for myself here as always, in no way should this be considered an official stance of the staff and management, yada yada yada) I am perfectly fine putting in all +4 stat gear. You're giving up an inventory slot for one stat, fine with me! I personally didn't agree with putting any +4 stat items in, but once that decision was made I do agree with having all stats accounted for. I just think there should be SOME cool factor for finding a UNIQUE RIG item, which gets taken away if you can replicate through store bought. Having the stat items relegated to head (or amulet/bracers since that ship has sailed) allows for the possibility (however small) of finding a RING, maybe even with +4 to a stat and a couple other minor bonuses and being like "awesome, best day in game ever!!!" There is little left of the RIG (which Valefort is keen to remind us) which will excite you anymore other than maybe something saves you a few 100K since you don't have to purchase it if you find it! or maybe makes you a few 100K so you can buy the pretty trinket your PC wants. Leaving a few things that the RIG can do which shops can't keeps things somewhat interesting when you're out adventuring... even if it only happens once a year, that's better than nothing. Plus with some changes Endelyon has made and continue to tweak I feel like interesting gear is a bit more common, which is a nice bonus.
Chord Silverstrings - Bard and OSR Squire / Tarent Nefzen - Arcane Wand Merchant and Master Alchemist / Irrace Arkentlar - Drow Adventurer / Finneaus Du'Veil - Gem Merchant and Executive Officer of SCCE

Tarent's Wands and Elixirs

A Wand Crafter's guide to using wands
User avatar
Svabodnik
Posts: 369
Joined: Sun Apr 16, 2017 5:07 pm

Re: missing +4 stat items (STR, CON, CHA)

Unread post by Svabodnik »

chad878262 wrote:[...]Something like this has already been stated as a goal, but no one has submitted a shop with any further +4 stat items as a requested part of that store. I think there is an approved shop with a +4 CHA item (if I recall it was head slot), but no one has had the time to build the shop keeper and put it in game.

There is a second shop that was requested, and recently approved, but it does not include any +4 stat items.

Should additional guilds put requests in and wish one of their (2 or 3?) epic items be a +4 stat item for STR or CON it will be reviewed and considered, but shops take a long time to get in because they do require lore to be written by the submitting guild/group and approved by DMs, mechanical review/approval by QC and then someone with the ability to do so must create the items and the shop. If I recall correctly it took the Red Wizards nearly a year to get their shop in game from initial submission to implementation[...]
I see; didn't really know it was such an extended process to get items added to the game. Is there an option for existing stocks in stores to be modified, once the initial approval process has gone through, or is it more of a one-and-done deal? Likewise, I remember that there were some thoughts about 'splitting up' the epic shops between different vendors (think it was in regard the Maecius Plays thread). Any chance new items could be introduced during that process?
"...I know that kind of man / It's hard to hold the hand of anyone / Who is reaching for the sky just to surrender..." – Leonard Cohen, The Stranger Song
chad878262
QC Coordinator
Posts: 9334
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2014 6:55 pm

Re: missing +4 stat items (STR, CON, CHA)

Unread post by chad878262 »

Svabodnik wrote: Is there an option for existing stocks in stores to be modified, once the initial approval process has gone through, or is it more of a one-and-done deal?
I am sure DMs and QC would consider additions to stores, but a faction shop has rules around number of epic items available.
Svabodnik wrote:Likewise, I remember that there were some thoughts about 'splitting up' the epic shops between different vendors (think it was in regard the Maecius Plays thread).
Certainly a possibility, but it's all about prioritization. There has been a LOT of work going on Dev side, not all of which QC (thus me) is privy to. There is always a lot of cool stuff being worked on, and only limited time to complete. As always, any players with a skill set (especially toolset!) that could be of assistance is welcome to apply to the area builder's, developers, media team, QC, etc. While some applications will not be accepted for various reasons, anyone who wants to help out would be considered.
Svabodnik wrote:Any chance new items could be introduced during that process?
Of course! Again, it is dependent upon what get's prioritized and what stuff is in the pipeline that those with the requisite skills are willing/able to devote their time to. I personally have tried stuff in the toolset and find even what most consider simple things to be complicated and difficult to understand if what I am doing is 'right' or if it is going to catastrophically break my game. Odd, but I am relatively skilled at math, spreadsheets, etc. but when it comes to scripting, development, etc. I can usually understand others pseudo-code, but trying to write anything myself causes smoke to leak from my ears. :oops:
Chord Silverstrings - Bard and OSR Squire / Tarent Nefzen - Arcane Wand Merchant and Master Alchemist / Irrace Arkentlar - Drow Adventurer / Finneaus Du'Veil - Gem Merchant and Executive Officer of SCCE

Tarent's Wands and Elixirs

A Wand Crafter's guide to using wands
User avatar
Svabodnik
Posts: 369
Joined: Sun Apr 16, 2017 5:07 pm

Re: missing +4 stat items (STR, CON, CHA)

Unread post by Svabodnik »

Gotcha, thanks for answering my questions. When chambordini said,
chambordini wrote:I think the idea might've been to add them all at some point, but I don't think we've got any concrete plans for that atm. [...] But that's not to say it can't be discussed. Any thoughts?
I didn't quite know how far discussion on the topic may sway it, one way or another. Though, rather than that seems there has been more interest in off-topic balance issues. Ah well.

As for me, looking forward to the possibility of having them added, and in clear personal bias would prefer that they wouldn't fall into glove, boot, or amulet slots.
"...I know that kind of man / It's hard to hold the hand of anyone / Who is reaching for the sky just to surrender..." – Leonard Cohen, The Stranger Song
Sun Wukong
Posts: 2837
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2017 3:05 pm

Re: missing +4 stat items (STR, CON, CHA)

Unread post by Sun Wukong »

+4 Strength items, random loot.
+4 Constituon items, usually boots from random loot.
+4 Charisma items, usually rings from random loot.
ARHicks00 wrote:Quote, "Also as a fighter type, you have to pray the DMs/staff didn't deviant too much from the source material from the player handbook. (Which happens all to often) A fighter type that doesn't cross class will get 50 AC and 52 if you get 30 tumble. (Not counting combat expertise feats for 53 to 56 AC and 55 to 58 respectively) However, most will have below this because you also need to dedicate feats to CCs, damage, and high AB. Most DMs do not take this inconsideration or don't care, which is why a lot of Fighter types fall to the waste side and servers become spellcaster dominate."

I am not being a jerk, but I am not argue about classes because it will go into theorycraft or not make a point at all.
First of all, you are actually being a jerk here. Why else use this colour that is basically unreadable against this background colour. If you use a lighter colour like this one, it is actually readable. The difference is like a night and day.

The numbers I provided earlier, buildwise, they just require the following things: 14 in Intelligence, 2 feats spent, 10-20 skill points, and enough gold earned to purchase the +4 equipment. If you do all that, you can sit on 50 that AC on demand with a 'FIGHTER 30' build, and you could actually get much higher AC than that.

There are 'fighter type builds' that can get much higher AC. Fighter 20/Dwarven Defender for example could get AC of 59 without that much of an effort.

This is not theorycrafting, it is just the way the server is.

Oh, and I would be curious to hear why your issue here went from pure fighters to 'fighter types' and all that.

And anyhow, when it comes to DM events, all takes is a DM spamming high caster level Mords to ruin the day of all casters in the event. Not to mention that generally speaking those low hitpoint arcanists usually end up dropping like flies. While tanky 'fighter types' keep on fighting and fighting and fighting. The more fighter types there are, the more likely it is that a clear majority of those fighter types will finish the encounter without even a loss of a single hitpoint. The DM needs to have some big boss monster spam Whirlwind Attack or some other pulse/AoE attack to harm that group of fighter types.

And anyhow, a DM can crush any player if they want to do so or even through honest mistake. I have seen DMs wipe out entire parties by making things too hard by honest mistake.
" I am no longer here, the elves of the Sword Coast are just far too horrible... "
- Elminster, probably.
ARHicks00
Posts: 559
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2016 11:28 am

Re: missing +4 stat items (STR, CON, CHA)

Unread post by ARHicks00 »

Sun Wukong wrote:First of all, you are actually being a jerk here. Why else use this colour that is basically unreadable against this background colour. If you use a lighter colour like this one, it is actually readable. The difference is like a night and day.
My bad. I was writing that post on my phone. I changed it too yellow.
This is not theorycrafting, it is just the way the server is.
I wasn't talking any other type of build except a figthter type build. Yes, I'm aware of dwarven defender and other such builds. (Fig/DD/WM/Rog, MaA/Paladin, or Palemaster gish build that get 53 or greater easy) I'm just sticking to basics because not everyone is a dwarven defender and as my post said not everyone who is a fighter type will build for total dedicate defense. Again, we can name every build in NWN2db, it would just go into theorycraft and it isn't about who has the biggest, but the fact the average players are not going to high ACs.
Oh, and I would be curious to hear why your issue here went from pure fighters to 'fighter types' and all that.
Fighter type as in Pure Core classes or PrCs. I'm still on topic and I'm trying to shy away from special builds because not everyone builds the same.
And anyhow, when it comes to DM events, all takes is a DM spamming high caster level Mords to ruin the day of all casters in the event. Not to mention that generally speaking those low hitpoint arcanists usually end up dropping like flies. While tanky 'fighter types' keep on fighting and fighting and fighting. The more fighter types there are, the more likely it is that a clear majority of those fighter types will finish the encounter without even a loss of a single hitpoint. The DM needs to have some big boss monster spam Whirlwind Attack or some other pulse/AoE attack to harm that group of fighter types.
This is yet another example of theorycraft. You can drop a fighter type like flies if they are don't have high saves. One will saving spell and he's toast. Hell, a fighter with 20 Fort can still die to a Fort saving spells that's DC is in it's 40s. Or you can just make a fighter eat several Reflex saving spells. How the fighter type counters is if he has UMD, but again that's theory craft too. Any situation you can subject those caster's in. You can also subject the fighter types too.
And anyhow, a DM can crush any player if they want to do so or even through honest mistake. I have seen DMs wipe out entire parties by making things too hard by honest mistake.
What does DM having to wipe parties have to do +4 items? This kind of goes back to my point that these discussion delve into pointless rambling.
chad878262
QC Coordinator
Posts: 9334
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2014 6:55 pm

Re: missing +4 stat items (STR, CON, CHA)

Unread post by chad878262 »

D&D ad will as this server is not balanced for solo. It is unreasonable to expect to solo equivalent or higher CR areas. It can be done with power building and knowledge of mechanics, but that isn't what content is balanced around. With a group no one needs 50 AC for the majority of content even in epics.
Chord Silverstrings - Bard and OSR Squire / Tarent Nefzen - Arcane Wand Merchant and Master Alchemist / Irrace Arkentlar - Drow Adventurer / Finneaus Du'Veil - Gem Merchant and Executive Officer of SCCE

Tarent's Wands and Elixirs

A Wand Crafter's guide to using wands
ARHicks00
Posts: 559
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2016 11:28 am

Re: missing +4 stat items (STR, CON, CHA)

Unread post by ARHicks00 »

chad878262 wrote:D&D ad will as this server is not balanced for solo. It is unreasonable to expect to solo equivalent or higher CR areas. It can be done with power building and knowledge of mechanics, but that isn't what content is balanced around. With a group no one needs 50 AC for the majority of content even in epics.
I rather not have to make crazy high AC build just to co exist at epic levels. If so then the content isn't worth plsying anyway. DnD is suppose to be fun, not an MMORPG. That is why I am playing a pure Fighter instead of special build this go around.
Sun Wukong
Posts: 2837
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2017 3:05 pm

Re: missing +4 stat items (STR, CON, CHA)

Unread post by Sun Wukong »

You do not have to be able to solo 100% of the server. A single character does not have to be able to do it all. There will be areas that allow all characters to reach level 30, and in the odd case there is not, do the weekly quests.
" I am no longer here, the elves of the Sword Coast are just far too horrible... "
- Elminster, probably.
ARHicks00
Posts: 559
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2016 11:28 am

Re: missing +4 stat items (STR, CON, CHA)

Unread post by ARHicks00 »

Sun Wukong wrote:You do not have to be able to solo 100% of the server. A single character does not have to be able to do it all. There will be areas that allow all characters to reach level 30, and in the odd case there is not, do the weekly quests.
I do not want to solo the cotent rather you shouldn't have to specialist to exist in participate in epic level cotent. Soloing is the result of players going their own way or some players being on at different times. It is also the result of social cliques formed within the server instead of players seeking oit lowly leveled players.
Sun Wukong
Posts: 2837
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2017 3:05 pm

Re: missing +4 stat items (STR, CON, CHA)

Unread post by Sun Wukong »

ARHicks00 wrote:I do not want to solo the cotent rather you shouldn't have to specialist to exist in participate in epic level cotent. Soloing is the result of players going their own way or some players being on at different times. It is also the result of social cliques formed within the server instead of players seeking oit lowly leveled players.
First of all, what do you even mean by the word specialist? Basically, in D&D, when you pick a class you are picking a specialist in a segment of a the interesting field of the adventuring business. Different classes have different strengths and weaknesses. It is entirely up to you to decide whether you want to create a character of competence or not. If you choose 'incompetence' due to role-play flavor and self imposed limitations, it is up to you to bear the consequences of that decision.

You are free to create a Fighter 8/Cleric 8/Wizard 7/Druid 7 with as evenly spread ability scores as possible, but clearly it is a build that is not going to compete against the strengths of a more specialized Fighter 30, Cleric 30, Wizard 30, or Druid 30. If the 'role-playing flavor' of said build is not enough to make you endure the flaws it has, then you should consider another build if not an entirely different characters.

Then I would like to hear what you mean by being able to 'exist or participate' in epic level content? Even the guy with the Fighter 8/Cleric 8/Wizard 7/Druid 7 build is able to face THE WHITE DRAGON in a party. His contribution might not be much beyond provided an extra meat shield and buffs to bait dispels, but he is still contributing and will be revived if fugued.

As for soloing, oh, I do have quite the experience with that on this server. You should not look at the loot gained, the experience points per kill, or even how challenging an area is, the only thing you should consider is how much experience points you can get per hour after potential trip to fugue. If you can kill 5 mobs worthy of 5 experience points each in the time it takes you to kill an 'epic mob' worthy of 18 experience points, you are better off killing those 5 exp mobs. 25 against 18 is a simple decision.

Finally, have a look at the in game scrying tool. I do see parties form all the time. But here is the thing, you cannot always expect the world to come to you. Sometimes you just got to send a tell first. Not to mention that people are quite free to play whichever character they please.
" I am no longer here, the elves of the Sword Coast are just far too horrible... "
- Elminster, probably.
ARHicks00
Posts: 559
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2016 11:28 am

Re: missing +4 stat items (STR, CON, CHA)

Unread post by ARHicks00 »

Sun Wukong wrote:First of all, what do you even mean by the word specialist? Basically, in D&D, when you pick a class you are picking a specialist in a segment of a the interesting field of the adventuring business.
Actually, no. Bard do not specialize at anything unless you build them that way.
Sun Wukong wrote:Different classes have different strengths and weaknesses.
Fighters for the most part are melee specialist and while they can be made archers, they aren't specialist at it nor do they get benefits like Arcane archer. Rogues specialist a utility skill characters since they posses a lot of skills and advantages that many classes do not. However, wasn't talking about the classes in that matter, but this server you have to be heavy defense to Epic levels.
Sun Wukong wrote:You are free to create a Fighter 8/Cleric 8/Wizard 7/Druid 7 with as evenly spread ability scores as possible, but clearly it is a build that is not going to compete against the strengths of a more specialized Fighter 30, Cleric 30, Wizard 30, or Druid 30. If the 'role-playing flavor' of said build is not enough to make you endure the flaws it has, then you should consider another build if not an entirely different characters.
Gish can specialize at melee either as can Clerics, but I wasn't referring one classes taking the place of another or cross class. Rather the epic level content requires heavy AC. Whether a player a pure fighter or cross-class.
Sun Wukong wrote:Then I would like to hear what you mean by being able to 'exist or participate' in epic level content? Even the guy with the Fighter 8/Cleric 8/Wizard 7/Druid 7 build is able to face THE WHITE DRAGON in a party. His contribution might not be much beyond provided an extra meat shield and buffs to bait dispels, but he is still contributing and will be revived if fugued.
He would just be a person contributing to the RP experience I've been saying in countless post. The rest of what you said has nothing to do with what we were talking about.
Sun Wukong
Posts: 2837
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2017 3:05 pm

Re: missing +4 stat items (STR, CON, CHA)

Unread post by Sun Wukong »

3rd edition D&D, Bard has bardic music which is party support. All bards have it, whether they want it or not.

Fighters are more closely tanks in D&D sense of the word. Something to hold a corridor or provide the rogue chance to flank for sneak attacks. Rogue is damage output.

My Ranger 30 has AC of 36... Buffed up. She got to level 30. Is it in any possible that you just do not want to learn how to properly play on this server?

And here is the thing, if content is made too easy and it can be, and it has been made, it will just bring forth demands of more difficulty. Countless complaints about powerbuilds just obliterate mobs in fraction of seconds and what not. I've been here for a long time, on and off, and I would say that the server at the moment is at a good place when it comes to challenge provided. If there specific complaints, bring those up in appropriate forums and those can be consider and possibly changed.
" I am no longer here, the elves of the Sword Coast are just far too horrible... "
- Elminster, probably.
ARHicks00
Posts: 559
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2016 11:28 am

Re: missing +4 stat items (STR, CON, CHA)

Unread post by ARHicks00 »

Sun Wukong wrote:3rd edition D&D, Bard has bardic music which is party support. All bards have it, whether they want it or not.

Fighters are more closely tanks in D&D sense of the word. Something to hold a corridor or provide the rogue chance to flank for sneak attacks. Rogue is damage output.

My Ranger 30 has AC of 36... Buffed up. She got to level 30. Is it in any possible that you just do not want to learn how to properly play on this server?

And here is the thing, if content is made too easy and it can be, and it has been made, it will just bring forth demands of more difficulty. Countless complaints about powerbuilds just obliterate mobs in fraction of seconds and what not. I've been here for a long time, on and off, and I would say that the server at the moment is at a good place when it comes to challenge provided. If there specific complaints, bring those up in appropriate forums and those can be consider and possibly changed.
1. Bard's have no specialist. They aren't good at melee, range, or magic. Regardless of their bard magic, they aren't good at anything. Same with clerics. Support is not a specialization as anyone can be support with potion, wand, or healing kit.

2. Fighters are melee specialist and room to build as archer. Tanking is a form of melee specialization as is dual wielding.

3. Why do I care or what relevance does this have to the topic?

4. NWN2 isn't an MMORPG so if they are looking for a challenge then go play one of those. Trying to do so only excludes players/builds. In addition, it's only encourages unnecessary nerfing and non-inclusion of items. (Which bring us to our topic) Any server, regardless if they keep powerful spells and feats, should be more focus RP then excluding certain feats or spells because if you are not then you are not upholding the true spirit of DnD. DnD as I said was not meant to be balance and if you're more worried about Jimmy making a wtf build then whether Jimmy being true to his RP then you're aren't a true RPer. MMORPGs have made the same mistake in the past and were the poorer for it because they listen to their player base about how to handle the balance issue because all the players complained about each other's class until they are nerfed into uselessness. I see a lot of that attitude here, but that's for another topic.

The question of the topic is why are these +4 items are missing and it's largely due to the fact, population attitude is changing and believe +4 items not to cause a huge imbalance to the game. Hell, the Persistent Spell topic showed hope. As a person who has played various server, there is nothing wrong with playing a game with less nerfs as it gives the players more options on how they want to play, but nerfing and making very hard content does not...rather it encourage pigeonhole game play.
chad878262
QC Coordinator
Posts: 9334
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2014 6:55 pm

Re: missing +4 stat items (STR, CON, CHA)

Unread post by chad878262 »

D&D is about challenge and MMORPGs take that from D&D, not the other way around. D&D is a roleplaying game, but it is not solely there to roleplay. Encounters are even based on CR (CHALLENGE Rating) in order to provide a challenge for an appropriate leveled party of adventurers. Most content is not 'very hard' even for a build with AC in the mid-40's, certainly not with a party to adventure with. It is a simple factor of how fast you kill and how many mobs you take on. If you are constantly getting yourself surrounded by half a dozen mobs at a CR equal to your level you better go for sky-high AC unless you can kill each of those mobs in 1 round and have access to healing as needed. However, if you are going slow like a smart adventurer instead of haste running through an area you'll be able to see up ahead and use ranged weapons, alchemist fire, etc. to draw enemies to you one or only a couple at a time. Do this and AC ~44-47 is more than enough, even in high CR area's like the Frost Giant Keep.

There is more to playing then how you build your character. AC, AB, Damage, Saves, etc. are all important factors, but how you play mechanically is an equally important factor. A PC with HiPS and/or Epic Dodge can get by with below 40 AC, a character with high STR and (improved) knockdown can get by with low 40's. Using weapons with on hit effects like daze/sleep/blindness/stun/etc. can also impact how much AC you need. Essentially taking the characters feats, skills, special abilities and weapon effects in to consideration allows you to determine what you can do to mitigate enemies abilities. If an enemy is dazed/knocked down/stunned/whatever then it is NOT attacking you and thus AC will be less important.

I already said it earlier in the thread, but to repeat, +4 items are allowed in shops. If someone wants to put forth the (considerable) effort to create some interesting/unique items, up to and including a +4 stat item then they are welcome to submit their request either for a new shop or to add something to an existing one. It will then be reviewed by DM's for lore and QC for balance. If approved, someone does still have to create the blueprint and add it to a shop/create a new shopkeeper which not everyone knows how to do so it does need to await prioritization. If you submit +4 STR Belt, we might decide it should be a helm or gauntlets, same with CHA and CON. DMs might make changes or ask you to write up alternative lore for the item, but it will get in eventually, so long as someone is putting forth the effort to work on it and patient enough to work with DM/QC/Dev staff through the process.
Chord Silverstrings - Bard and OSR Squire / Tarent Nefzen - Arcane Wand Merchant and Master Alchemist / Irrace Arkentlar - Drow Adventurer / Finneaus Du'Veil - Gem Merchant and Executive Officer of SCCE

Tarent's Wands and Elixirs

A Wand Crafter's guide to using wands
Post Reply

Return to “General Discussion”