Sneaky Touch Attacks for Other Caster-Rogue Hybrid PrCs

[SyntheticRose]

Hi!

I think that Daggerspell Mage and Darkfire Disciple, as classes that grant both spell progression and sneak attack dice, should get the same treatment as Arcane Trickster as it relates to sneak attack dice applying to touch-attack spells such as Scorching Ray and Inflict Light Wounds.

It would be in-theme for both classes. Please discuss.

[aaron22]

well for scorching ray it can affect multiple targets at the same time giving a multiplier to SA dice that may be out of balance. that is the main concern i see for such a spell.

for the inflict series, it is not an attack roll as it is a save will1/2. this would make it not applicable to grant SA.

just my thoughts.

[The Whistler]

It's a mechanic that should apply to all characters regardless of prcs, really

[SyntheticRose]

Inflict spells do have a touch attack roll, there is just ~also~ a save for 1/2 if you hit. I have seen many times the gibberling shamans on my loot runs miss their Inflicts on me, sometimes even due to concealment and mirror image!

Scorching Ray is already a multiple-target sneak attack when cast by an Arcane Trickster, but if you really want to specifically exclude that one spell, I'm okay with that.

[YourMoveHolyMan]

Have you tried it within closer ranges? Ranged sneak attacks are bound by a range limit.

[SyntheticRose]

https://wiki.bgtscc.net/index.php?title ... _Trickster

RTA sneak attack
Sneak Attack damage now applies to ranged touch attack spells when cast from a spellbook.

^ Arcane Trickster has this wording on its wiki page, and no other class does.

[metaquad4]

Have you tried it within closer ranges? Ranged sneak attacks are bound by a range limit.

Core nwn2 didn't have RTAs with ranged touch attacks at all, unlike PnP. Kaedrin was the one who implemented it for all RTAs as per PnP, arcane trickster on this server was implemented with having it as a class feature.

I think that adding it to Daggerspell and Darkfire Disciple have both casting progression and sneak attacks, and not all classes (warlock and divine) can't access arcane trickster.

[SyntheticRose]

That's basically my concern, yes. Daggerspell Mage and Darkfire Disciple both have spellcasting progression and sneak attack progression, and are open to classes that cannot otherwise benefit from Arcane Trickster.

I think it would be a good change to make.

[chad878262]

Warlock DSM is already very strong. Giving sneak dice to blasts seems an unnecessary power up.

[YourMoveHolyMan]

My err, played on a few full kaedrins enabled servers and forgot that it wasn't the case for all SA

[SyntheticRose]

Warlock/Daggerspell can already get sneak attack dice and blast dice at once via Hideous Blow. This would only bring their ranged options up to speed with the rest of their kit.

It especially makes sense when you consider the thematics of Arcane Throw. You're throwing a dagger with your ranged touch spells.

[Nemni]

The rules from complete arcane seem pretty clear:

Any spell that requires an attack roll and deals damage functions as a weapon in certain respects, whether the spell deals normal hit point damage, nonlethal damage, ability damage, or energy drain. Such spells can threaten critical hits, can be used in sneak attacks ...

Also:

Some weaponlike spells can strike multiple times in the same round. When the caster gets a bonus on damage with such spells (including sneak attack damage), the extra damage applies only to the first attack ...

So a wizard only gets added damage on first ray, and a warlock wouldn't get extra damage on any additional hits when using a shape.
But if it's a good idea or not is another question. Personally I don't really see the logic in having it be arcane trickster only.

[metaquad4]

Warlock DSM is already very strong. Giving sneak dice to blasts seems an unnecessary power up.

I'm not really sure how one of the worst classes for warlocks is "very strong". Could you please elaborate on what makes it stronger? Possibly with a build to show.

DSM has high requirements (2 useless feats). The highest elemental bonus on a weapon we have on this server is 1d6, which is super low for what you give up. On a higher magic server with 1d10 or 2d10 weapons, I could buy that use for DSM. But not here. For this use, you want to make up for 3d6 blast dice (2 epic bonus feats are lost, versus most DEX-locks who will go Warlock 27/SD3). You won't be finding weapons that equal 3d6 lost damage here.

You can't trigger sneak dice on an RTA with warlock. So no synergy there. Even if you could, you'd end up doing a grand total of 17.5~ extra damage. Wooooop! And you'd actually be losing damage and CL, the max CL you could get from a combo that could trigger sneak attacks on an RTA (effectively) is 27 (That would be rogue 3/warlock 14/SD 3/Daggerspell 10). You can do it from invisibility, but you lose a lot of damage because you need to expend half your rounds to do invisible (1 blast per 2 rounds instead of 1 blast per round).

A rogue combo, like rogue 10/warlock 7/DSM 10/Shadowdancer 3 gives you the combined smashed result of a bad rogue build and a bad warlock build. All the warlock tricks can be replicated with UMD, and you lose damage compared to either a pure sneak attacker or a pure warlock blaster.

Yeah, no. Its a really bad combo. Warlock 27/Shadowdancer 3 is a good combo. Probably the one good DEX-lock combo, CON-lock and CHA-lock being generally superior to DEX-lock, with HiPs being the one trick that can set DEX-lock apart.