Good aligned PvE

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flipside43
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Re: Good aligned PvE

Unread post by flipside43 »

Part of the issue is that most monstrous races are evil or neutral, whereas good aligned races in the wilds are rarer. The evil monstrous races are also content to fight with each other the majority of the time. So I think having a lot of areas with neutral/evil spawns is pretty typical for the setting.

Another observation is that we also do not have many "civilized" humanoid races which are grind fodder, from my memory on the surface, only the bandit cave bandits, trade way bandits, and the pirates in Ulgoth's Beard.

With that in mind, some ideas include:

A djinni location possibly through a portal, with djinni, their servants/slaves, and a noble djinn boss. You could put a lamp warning outside the portal to warn of the hostility.

A firbolg (goodly aligned giant kin) area with a storm giant boss. You could put a wandering werebear outside the area to warn off people.

A nature area with treants (which are typically good aligned), thorns, fey such as pixies with a elder fey boss. You could put a dryad outside the area to warn off people. Treants in particular are known to be hostile in the Chondalwood, so its not out of character to defend their established area against invasions of all sorts.

The first two can be done in interiors, possibly even the third with some creative thinking about an underground pool or something.

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Firbolg
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Thorn_(fey)

Other lists of good aligned creatures:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki ... _alignment
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki ... _alignment
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki ... _alignment

(EDIT: Thanks to Colonic for helping me brainstorm)
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Re: Good aligned PvE

Unread post by aaron22 »

i think there is a pretty underutilized area that used to or still has treants and wisps. It was fairly high CR. I have not been there in ages, so not even sure it still exists or was chopped in the big overland map update that took place a year ago. It could be a really popular spot and I am unaware. But that seems like a good place to have a slight alteration to start with.

I'll look through those lists you gave and see if i catch some inspirations.
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Re: Good aligned PvE

Unread post by Deathgrowl »

All of those suggestions would just turn the server into an absolute joke. All ability for immersion would be gone.

Noble djinn are beings on par with some of the most powerful demon lords. They can literally wish things out of existence.

Storm Giants are the most powerful giant kin, by quite far. A storm giant boss would make the frost giant king look like a sissy if you represented the storm giant correctly.

The treants and fey we have as killable mobs on the server are corrupted by the shadow druids in the same area or otherwise non-good.

And this is completely missing the point in the first place: These kinds of areas would be defended by other creatures and people of good alignment, because that's the right thing to do for a good aligned character. And you can't make that argument about evil areas like this.

There's no way to make sense of a grind area with good aligned mobs. It cannot work.
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Re: Good aligned PvE

Unread post by Ravial »

^Basically. It's a recipe for tons of pvp to happen due to static mobs that are present on the server and with that will most likely come complaints on PvP, like they very much tend to pop up often.

Druids of any good aligned nature deity or of Silvanus would be -obliged- to defend the area with fey and fribolgs, for example. Rangers would be obliged to do so as well. Clerics of deities that are allied to fey races and good aligned giants would be obliged to do so as well. Those are examples of just three classes, and there are many more reasons for good or neutral aligned characters to protect such areas from evil characters.

Noble Djinni is just too much. They're literally rulers of all djinni on Elemental Plane of Air- the strongest of strong. I think adding that would disillusion a lot of things on the server and make the uniqueness of some encounters become completely meh. It was happening with Avernus already before. I can't say I'm looking forward to seeing it happen with other places/creatures.

At this moment there's literally no area that's barred from anyone to grind or loot on. There's quite literally no issue at all. An issue will come if such areas were to be added, and they will be rather considerable.
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Re: Good aligned PvE

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Deathgrowl wrote:
There's no way to make sense of a grind area with good aligned mobs. It cannot work.
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Everyone would want to kill them, over and over and over and over again, right?!?

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Re: Good aligned PvE

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chambordini wrote:I think we should first address the OOC nature of our PvE spawns, how they're usually regarded, start thinking about a redesign to make PvE more immersive or less like a leveling grind chore or otherwise a nuisance that you need to get through to see the chests.
That would be very adult!

But good luck with that...since BGTSCC has been recently changed to become officially "medium" RP.

That said, I imagine that the only way to go about this would be to remove XP from mobs altogether, and redesign the server so that end-run dungeon tokens are returned to training halls for XP cash in. Or something like that.

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Re: Good aligned PvE

Unread post by aaron22 »

Steve wrote:That said, I imagine that the only way to go about this would be to remove XP from mobs altogether, and redesign the server so that end-run dungeon tokens are returned to training halls for XP cash in. Or something like that.
I gotta go on my token run

:)
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Re: Good aligned PvE

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You think that's more stupid than spending RL hours IG mass murdering sentient beings with no options for alternatives via RP, for "experience?"

Yeah, right.

Break down this Persistent World/game into parts, and you can easily see the superficial nature of entirety of its design. Especially the farther BGTSCC gets away from DnD. Hell, you don't even need to break it down, just a general pass over will provide you with enough ridiculousness to choke on.

For the fantasy, you have to doubly accept the fantasy to even begin to get anywhere. Or, just be completely fooled by it from the outset.

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Re: Good aligned PvE

Unread post by flipside43 »

The Western Heartlands and the Sword Coast are also a lot bigger than the server dictates. It is called the "wilds" and the "frontier" for a reason. There is plenty of room for evil to thrive in the Heartlands and Sword Coast and room for pockets such as these to exist. Sure the overall nature of the spawns can be toned down to be reasonable but none the less, this is feasible. It makes as much sense as the 100's of dragons, including white dragons, slayed every week. As much sense as why the Fist havn't completely eliminated the Orcs in the Sharp Teeth. Or why the Hellriders haven't steam rolled a lot of the evil going on. There is a certain suspension of belief going on overall to facilitate the PvE content. Claiming it can't happen because the good axis has the server on lock is a poor excuse.
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Re: Good aligned PvE

Unread post by aaron22 »

@steve
you are correct. there is very little to deny that the video game is a video game and not a DnD simulator, but it is fun. It has so many options to satisfy the fun itch to many players. We all try to converge the fun video game with the IC RP, but it is a personal facade that requires us to mentally lean our thoughts away from the reality toward the facade.

@all
I have no ambition to destroy the game world from the outside (different from IC). But a point of contention in the argument against is the same example of an expectation to endure inside the reality of what is current.
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Re: Good aligned PvE

Unread post by Hoihe »

I
I find myself agreeing with Steve and Chambordini - shifting the XP/progress from single combat to "encounter/challenge-based" would do wonders.

This would also suddenly permit people to progress as pacifist thieves using adventuring mechanics who avoid all contact in a dungeon, rob it blind and get out without killing a single soul.

II

As for flipside -

He also has a point on the size. When I DM'd for evil people, I exploited said fact and gave them random small manors/hamlets/fortresses to do their evil stuff to in the Fields of the Dead, trying to make sure it was all self-contained to avoid any incidence of PvP or whatnot. It worked fairly well with the Fields of the Dead.

Could possible use the Fields of the Dead?

Have a hamlet/fortress of non-descript alignment PCs. Mercenaries and Zhents could easily RP that they're trying to collect protection money and needing to give reason for said money. As the area would be "generic settlement" rather than an explicit one, there'd be no need to break character. After all, the only rumours would be heard would be "Mercenary faction raiding hamlets in the north!".

Someone camping the area for PvP would be claiming they are protecting every single settlement at once, which is absurd.

Who knows, maybe there could even be an NPC "Claimant" in Soubar looking to hire people to press his claims over a specific estate.


III
As for explicitly good aligned areas-

Remember when the Cloakwoods had fairies, dryads and lizardfolk?

Does anyone remember Ivan the Druid, and the constant squabbling over "newbs need grind area" "but it's evil to kill them!" "But newbs need grind area." It even devolved into PvP. Then there was a DM event that migrated the lizards elsewhere and replaced them with evil fey.

The same would likely happen from any good aligned area. It's breaking character for paladins/druids not to intervene.

The only way these would work would be to put them in the Fields of the Dead and to explicitly declare that it's a "generic area representing a different settlement each time the server resets, and camping it makes no sense ICly as it's a nebulous location."
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Re: Good aligned PvE

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i think it is up to the player to not allow the shared world to devolve into a mess. That is something that is already done . There are many places where a certain type of character could PvP defend some PvE place from those adventuring in the area. It just isn't done that often, because of the Headline and first paragraph in the rules
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Re: Good aligned PvE

Unread post by chad878262 »

In the original Baldur's Gate, one of the most enjoyable things that occurred were running in to various parties of adventurers. Rather than new area's, it would be VERY cool if someone could do something similar to dedude's quests. Spawn a party of adventurers, some good, some neutral, some evil. They approach the closest PC and initiate dialogue, RP options are presented based on the party that spawns and it gives PC's the ability to chose appropriate selections however they like. A few examples...

A party of X number of paladins spawns and approaches the PC(s).
- If the PC is a Monster race the Paladins order said PC to leave the area
- PC can either chose to (a) Say something about the Paladin's mother and attack or (b) meekly vacate the area so as to avoid their holy wrath.
- If PC is not a monster race the Paladins approach and hail the PC(s) asking if they've encountered any troubles.
- PC can either (a) exchange pleasantries with the Paladins and wish them well on their way or (b) lure them to let their guard down and attack...all those weapons and armor must be worth a fortune!

Party comes upon a group of Necromancers doing some dark ritual
- The Necromancers notice the PC(s) and indicate they need a sacrifice to complete their (whatever).
- PCs can chose to be evil and assist the necromancers in completing the ritual for a reward (and perhaps can even betray them after) or can smite the evil necromancers.

Party comes upon a random adventuring party of a fighter type, rogue type, divine type and arcane type. The party is haughty, but not violent. PC(s) can chose to be outwardly violent, meek or haughty in return, resulting in the NPC party attacking, mocking the PC(s) and leaving or perhaps having a dice roll to determine if they attack.


Again, just a few examples, but I think having these types of random encounters in any non-city/town map would allow evil and good PC's to have RP opportunities without any need for new area's.

Off topic, but somewhat related to the discussion about XP by goal accomplishment rather than mass murdering the xp cow mobs...
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Long term I would love to see more options for dungeons/interiors that encourage group/party based adventures. Scaled encounters that offer enemies that provide different challenges (high AC, high saves/spell resistance, high DR/HP, etc.) which makes for the potential to make soloing far more difficult or near impossible while ensuring balanced parties have something everyone can bring to the table and feel useful. Once we have a proof of concept built up we can then implement a bit of randomness by having perhaps half a dozen different possible enemy types that can spawn. Instead of having spawn points, set areas within the dungeon could roll for encounters. Making it something that takes more time to get through with perhaps less battles, but more challenges/puzzles along the way. Encouraging folks to group up, roleplay their characters and work together to figure out the puzzles and then once they finish, move on to somewhere else instead of speed circle running for XP. Basically once you 'clear' the dungeon you get your rewards (loot/xp) and there is nothing else there for you, making it available for the next group.
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Re: Good aligned PvE

Unread post by Hoihe »

chad878262 wrote:In the original Baldur's Gate, one of the most enjoyable things that occurred were running in to various parties of adventurers. Rather than new area's, it would be VERY cool if someone could do something similar to dedude's quests. Spawn a party of adventurers, some good, some neutral, some evil. They approach the closest PC and initiate dialogue, RP options are presented based on the party that spawns and it gives PC's the ability to chose appropriate selections however they like. A few examples...

A party of X number of paladins spawns and approaches the PC(s).
- If the PC is a Monster race the Paladins order said PC to leave the area
- PC can either chose to (a) Say something about the Paladin's mother and attack or (b) meekly vacate the area so as to avoid their holy wrath.
- If PC is not a monster race the Paladins approach and hail the PC(s) asking if they've encountered any troubles.
- PC can either (a) exchange pleasantries with the Paladins and wish them well on their way or (b) lure them to let their guard down and attack...all those weapons and armor must be worth a fortune!

Party comes upon a group of Necromancers doing some dark ritual
- The Necromancers notice the PC(s) and indicate they need a sacrifice to complete their (whatever).
- PCs can chose to be evil and assist the necromancers in completing the ritual for a reward (and perhaps can even betray them after) or can smite the evil necromancers.

Party comes upon a random adventuring party of a fighter type, rogue type, divine type and arcane type. The party is haughty, but not violent. PC(s) can chose to be outwardly violent, meek or haughty in return, resulting in the NPC party attacking, mocking the PC(s) and leaving or perhaps having a dice roll to determine if they attack.


Again, just a few examples, but I think having these types of random encounters in any non-city/town map would allow evil and good PC's to have RP opportunities without any need for new area's.

Off topic, but somewhat related to the discussion about XP by goal accomplishment rather than mass murdering the xp cow mobs...
Hidden: show
Long term I would love to see more options for dungeons/interiors that encourage group/party based adventures. Scaled encounters that offer enemies that provide different challenges (high AC, high saves/spell resistance, high DR/HP, etc.) which makes for the potential to make soloing far more difficult or near impossible while ensuring balanced parties have something everyone can bring to the table and feel useful. Once we have a proof of concept built up we can then implement a bit of randomness by having perhaps half a dozen different possible enemy types that can spawn. Instead of having spawn points, set areas within the dungeon could roll for encounters. Making it something that takes more time to get through with perhaps less battles, but more challenges/puzzles along the way. Encouraging folks to group up, roleplay their characters and work together to figure out the puzzles and then once they finish, move on to somewhere else instead of speed circle running for XP. Basically once you 'clear' the dungeon you get your rewards (loot/xp) and there is nothing else there for you, making it available for the next group.

All of these are +1.
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Re: Good aligned PvE

Unread post by Ravial »

I think your idea of instanced encounters like that is really great, chad!

And I gotta say, you've got a lot of point Chambo.
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