Game Balance

[Calen]

Assuming that buffing the things in order to balance is more work than nerfing things.
The main argument most make about the nerfs is that it doesn't balance anything, arguable it causes bigger imbalances and breaks builds that aren't cookie cutter.
Builds we got stuck with in the first place because of nerfing a few things. That aside the nerfs do nothing to make melee better as the server setting itself favors casters.

If you want to rebalance the server you'll need to be drastic in changes and ask yourself if you want something like epic levels all together.
Another question you can ask your self is ' is this fun and what other builds do I break by doing so'.

Just some basic examples about drastic changes.

1: You could arguable remove the dragon pet and dragon form and druids will still be exceptionally tough borderline overpowered.
2: Make stealth work like rogues stealth and remove SD all together
3: Make potions of restoration no longer work for hellfire warlocks or make the hellfire warlock lose the HP after they con dip.
4: Remove the 3/20 rule and change it to 1/20.

Finally I really don't think D&D needs to be balanced and I can't say it has been a success on BGTSCC.

Example: We went from 6 second a level badger as a mage spell to having summons that outperform an average melee up to epics.

Edit: I enjoy the summons a lot ,same goes for polymorph. Just because something is imbalanced doesn't mean it isn't fun both playstyle and RP wise.

[Theodore01]

The bard hymm cut is uses and give more monsters sonic resistance but to deal half dmg

Only the healing from hymm was cut, damage remains the same.

[Steve]

Divine power was strong but only a short while and its not like you can run around even half the day with it on

Sorry mate, but this is a false statement. I’ve played a FvS, I’ve partied up with better FvS builders than me. Just off the top of my head you can easily have 5 Extended Divine Powers, which at CL 20 is 20 minutes of Divine Power that can take you through a full Rest Timer for Level 30.

So yeah, suboptimal builds can DP all day long, easily causing 400dmg per round. That alone makes having to skew mobs and bosses to such a degree that Game Balance IS ludicrous to attempt without taking care of glaring issues.

That said, more Balancing please! And while at it, also adjust the mobs and Bosses, and Balance for non-combat investments, so that something other than just Bashing to Victory is seen as the Standard for Play.

[Max Hatchet]

I see part of the problem here is that people base their builds on running at top speed (often solo) thro a dungeon to level as fast as possible rather than carefully adventuring with a group while rping

The server IMO should not be optimised for people that play like that.

I’d like dungeons to be more dangerous with more random elites or random mass spawns or more puzzles that require party play

[Steve]

You can say whatever you want, pimpjwp, but just last month I was with a FvS build grinding Hill Giants for 20 straight minutes, and the FvS was so potent after casting DP that my own Paladin Crusader—which is not light wait at all—rarely if ever made a difference in killing the mobs.

Nonetheless, then, lucky for me that I appreciate these attempts at Balance, since to at least some of us, they seem quite warranted. If you are in the other side of the fence, sorry for you.

[Hoihe]

You can say whatever you want, pimpjwp, but just last month I was with a FvS build grinding Hill Giants for 20 straight minutes, and the FvS was so potent after casting DP that my own Paladin Crusader—which is not light wait at all—rarely if ever made a difference in killing the mobs.

Nonetheless, then, lucky for me that I appreciate these attempts at Balance, since to at least some of us, they seem quite warranted. If you are in the other side of the fence, sorry for you.

This might not seem like a big issue in a vacuum, but if the server gets balanced to accomodate builds like described, a lot of otherwise decent, lore-friendly and varied builds will get pushed to the sidelines, and builds that already struggled would be useless even in a party (since mobs metagame, you can't even protect your squishies as they'll ignore you and go for them).

And you might say "Well, don't balance for the OP builds!" and you would be correct. However, people playing OP builds also want a challenge and thus will clamour for making stuff harder.

And once again...

Divine Power change? You can do most content with 38 AB and 20-30 dmg/per hit. Won't stop DP reliant builds at all, losing an attack and 8 AB from 50 to 42.


As for non-divine meleers being able to do 300 dmg/round - they havn't really got either AC or proper sustain (without heavy consumable costs). An FvS can drop extended Regenerate and be good for the day.

Arcane/Assassin Archers do the most dmg, but they die the moment they get in range to the enemy. Very squishy, those.

[Steve]

Say it anyway you like divine power doesnt cause massive dmg thats divine might a totally separate ability that cannot be used even half a day .

1. Divine Might wasn't the issue.
2. Divine Power provided the FvS the ability to land 4 APR consistently, and with the STR buff, GMW, whatever else in terms of Items—which EVERYTHING must be taken into account when balancing—the FvS was doing 70+ dmg per hit, usually x4, then when getting a crit, it was 140+ per hit.

You can write all you want about DAMAGE output/capability, but if you can't hit the barn, you ain't knocking it down. Thus, how many hits do you need to make? THAT is the issue.

Divine Power provide far to many likely attacks-per-round. Now that is less of an issue, because AB is down via the nerf to BAB.

[Steve]

My bardzerker can output 45 dmg per hit, avg. of 3 hits per round (at lvl 23). That's 135 dmg per round, natch. When the bardzerker crits, I see 123 dmg per hit. That means, at Level 30, I can expect easily and average of 3.5 hits per round and with crits, an avg. of 300 dmg per round, all day, every day. With near zero worry about dispels. This is all WITHOUT Divine Might, so literally, you are very, very wrong, pimpjwp.

Now, simply put, whether you agree or not, a FvS with the OLD Divine Power could get 400 dmg per round, self-buffed. And, last a full Rest at Level 30. Most likely, with the Divine Power BAB to AB change, the FvS or Cleric will not get more likely what the Bardzerker can output.

However...should you put both that FvS and the Bardzerker w/ Legionaires March together with a BAB 30 Fighter (melee), then add a buffing Mage on top, you would see that big bad White Dragon getting knocked on its ass, daily. Which ...probably already happens.

Anyway, I'm happy to agree to disagree here, since the back and forth would otherwise entice the Mods to shut down this thread. So, thanks for the discourse pimpy!

[cosmic ray]

Here's a toast to arguing about balance taking only, or mostly in any case, the very number-crunched, min-maxed, powerbuilt, mathematically unsurmountable examples that the game allows as your standard.

[Steve]

Here's a toast to arguing about balance taking only, or mostly in any case, the very number-crunched, min-maxed, powerbuilt, mathematically unsurmountable examples that the game allows as your standard.

Well, this what I assume IS taken into account, as reason for said "balancing."

And the only reason it matters, the whole powerbuilt-on-steroids issue that generates "nerfs," is that Content—mobs, bosses, traps, etc.—are often designed in order to provide a Challenge with those Tier .000001 builds, and unfortunately then make it impossible for a non-number-crunched, min-maxed, powerbuilt, mathematically unsurmountable example to actually get around...solo, that is.

If you party up, and work toward, as a Player, and a group, to creating a well rounded Party, you can easily take on Epic Content without the god-mode-PB builds.

So really, the "nerfing" only affects those Players who just wish to ONLY solo and reap mad lootz without have much to worry about, in terms of OOC time + energy.

[cosmic ray]

So really, the "nerfing" only affects those Players who just wish to ONLY solo and reap mad lootz without have much to worry about, in terms of OOC time + energy.

Nope. Those players will have a very convenient 100% RCR period to, should they find the need, make a different Rambo build.

Everyone else will just be nerfed.

Oh, and fighters and weapon masters will still suck.

[Ravial]

[Steve]

Building a competent Fighter/melee build for BGTSCC is about the easiest thing one can do. And if you can't do it yourself, or better, don't WANT to do it, yourself, the community can easily give you many options to choose, especially tailored to your RP concept!

BTW, Rambo is a total fighter build...maybe with a bit of Rogue in 'em. Naw, probs just mad OP CON-high Barbarian. Kinda like Whistlekins barbo!

[Deathgrowl]

Oh, and fighters and weapon masters will still suck.

... What? Can you elaborate on what you mean by this?

[Kiran]

Can we nerf fighters/weapon masters too? they do too much damage, more than a wizard can do in 2 blast spells!