Would like some advice on rogue builds

[Calen]

I'm looking for some basics and not so basic rogue builds, haven't build them before and kind of confused how to optimize them.
It has to be a human/melee build and evil at best TN.
A few I've been toying around with are.

Build 1:

10 dark discipline 4 cleric 13 rogue 3 shadow dancer, this is for a Maskarran.
it ends having 10d6 sneak and 1d6 sneak extra and good will/reflex saves.
It lacks on the defensive department and relies on wands to grab 44 AC.

Build 2:

I can't test this one out yet.
Build goes 10 rogue 10 Arcane trickster 7 wizard 3 shadow dancer , the build is basically a poly sneaker build.
You can put everything in int and shift, down side are the dispels.

Build 3:

17 rogue/10 Whirling Dervish 3 shadow dancer.
The most boring out of the three.

Does any one else have a good idea for a cleric sneaker or perhaps a druid sneaker/warlock sneaker or something with ghostfaced killer.
Curious about a str sneaker as well (( going the 8 assassin route)).
Overall looking for a decent to good build.

[Kobamw]

It looks like dispels will be a problem for you in builds 1 and 2 (i.e., not just no. 2). Build no. 2 may be better mechanically with Assassin – 8 levels would get you what you now have from 13 levels of Rogue and Shadow Dancer. You still lack 4 CL, but it’s lower risk of dispel. You could improve CL further with Spellpower of Archmage, but I think you won’t be able to squeeze it in under 3b20 rule.

Also, in build 2 you don’t have to put all ability points into INT. You won’t be a DC mage, so you need INT as low as 16 and a +3 item. The rest may go e.g. into DEX for AC, AB (with Weapon Finesse) and two-weapon fighting.

Generally commenting on your build ideas I understand you are looking for arcane/divine HiPS concept. Unfortunately, both caster and HiPSter work optimally if fully specialized. My suggestion would be to go take only one of these roads and add elements from the other for flavor/RP background. For example, you could be an assassin with dip of Cleric for some static Domain bonuses and low level buffs before tough fight. Bless, Aid and Divine Favor give you +3 to hit and some temporary hit points. Alternatively, you can go with Cleric 14, Darkfire 10, 3 Rogue and 3 Shadow Dancer. You would have CL 28 (should be quite fine with dispels), HiPS and 5d6 of sneak attack damage. This is of course for flavor, because I expect you would kill faster just attacking head on

[Calen]

I like the concept of the sneaker build. it is mainly RP flavor but still fun.
However that build won't be able to qualify for 19 dex pre 7 in a normal way, As a human is requires to min/max (10-18-10-10-16-8) which isn't desired.



8) I can't take shadowdancer level even though I just put a point in dex and it's 19

Due to engine's limitation and server's ruling, you need to have a 'dummy' qualification feat in order to take Shadowdancer level. This feat can only be acquired after leveling up. In vanialla, it is possible to take Shadowdancer level at level 8, but unless you have 19 points in DEX prior to level 7, you cannot qualify for it.

Trying this build out now though, curious how it does damage wise.
Do you happen to have any other good non divine ,melee sneaker build?

[Kobamw]

If by "non-divine" you mean "non-caster" then sure, there are many. You need to give me at least some general direction, though. There are PTWF Assassins, Manyshot Assassins, we can work around Shadow Dancer if you don't like to abuse the Death Attack. If by "sneak PC" you mean Sneak Attack and not attacking from invisibility, then there's a separate chapter on Feinters. So, what you are looking for in terms of playing style and RP? This server has almost endless possibilities.

[Calen]

RP wise pretty much a scumbag rogue/ alley way thug that follows mask.
Quite neutral when ever it is dex/str or feinter though would prefer melee weapons and HIPS.

How are feint /str sneak attack builds with hips holding up vs their dex counter parts, and what are solid builds for these?

[Deathgrowl]

http://nwn2db.com/build/?175324

This is the good old yardstick rogue16/assassin9/invisible blade5. Hard to go wrong with that. This is a sneaky, stabby build.

I can help you mold something more specific if you have a character concept in mind. I advice assassin or shadowdancer for hips, as feint is not really reliable enough for delievering sneak attacks.

If you want a more thug-like guy (say the archetype Bronn in GOT), there are fighter/assassin style builds with strength focus that can be pretty cool.

EDIT:
Here's a strengthy dual wielder assassin that might be of interest:
http://nwn2db.com/build/?270346

[Kobamw]

How are feint /str sneak attack builds with hips holding up vs their dex counter parts, and what are solid builds for these?

Strength gives you a bit straight damage which might be helpful against sneak-immunes if you don’t have Epic Precision. It also lets you carry more loot. Dexterity gives you more AC and allows for Epic Dodge if you reach Dex 25. It is also a requirement for two-weapon fighting feats. So may be forced to invest a bit in Dex anyway. Alternatively, as DG indicated, you could use classes like Tempest or Dread Pirate to get two-weapon fighting feats.

[chad878262]

Build 1:

10 dark discipline 4 cleric 13 rogue 3 shadow dancer, this is for a Maskarran.
it ends having 10d6 sneak and 1d6 sneak extra and good will/reflex saves.
It lacks on the defensive department and relies on wands to grab 44 AC.

For Darkfire Disciple consider Cleric 13/A8/DfD9 or C9/R3/A8/DfD10 You'll have a bit more caster level even if you miss out on Crippling Strike/Epic Precision. If you want the Rogue/SD split than consider either R10/C7/SD3/DfD10 for Epic Precision or I think you'd be better off with C14/R3/SD3/DfD10. You could also consider dropping the idea of HiPS alltogether and focus more on being a caster if you wanted to, by dropping Shadow Dancer for Hierophant. Just note the updated requirements that you need 19 Wisdom which will make stat distribution a bit of a pain.

Build 2:

I can't test this one out yet.
Build goes 10 rogue 10 Arcane trickster 7 wizard 3 shadow dancer , the build is basically a poly sneaker build.
You can put everything in int and shift, down side are the dispels.

What do you want out of the build? If you are looking for a "Blaster" where you apply sneak attacks to your RTA spells then you don't really 'need' epic precisions and tons of sneak dice since you're also losing dice on your RTA spells. For example Polar Ray is d6/caster level up to caster level 30. So here with CL21 you get 21d6. However, going R3/W14/AT10/SD3 you now have CL28 and get 28d6 for Polar Ray while only losing 3d6 sneak dice, a net gain of 4d6 damage. Personally I would opt for this split or if you wanted to you could go W13/A8/AT9 as an alternative with a bit more sneak dice, but a bit lower caster level.

Build 3:

17 rogue/10 Whirling Dervish 3 shadow dancer.
The most boring out of the three.

Again, what are you trying to do with the build? Note you are losing quite a bit of sneak dice for two relatively defensive PRC's. If it is for RP than that's fine, but consider that WD and SD while seemingly having synergy by the same requirements also give a lot of the same benefits and take away sneak dice (SD more-so than WD, but WD is still losing 2d6 over 10 levels). Since Whirling Dervish gains Defensive Roll you really only need 13 Rogue to qualify for both epic precision and epic dodge. Thus you could do something like R13/A8/WD9 if you wished, but of course you lose out on minor teleportation which might be an ability you wanted to play with.


All of these builds are doable, but you need to understand there is nothing optimized about them and with Rogue's it's pretty tough going on this server if you don't do one of the 4 or 5 optimum routes. That is not to say they can't be fun to play or solo up to a point, but don't expect anything besides a 'power-built' rogue played by a pretty solid/mechanically knowledgeable player to be able to wreck stuff solo.

[Calen]

Thanks for the advice, it's appreciated.
I'm not at home with rogue builds in general and tend to build most of my characters in a defensive way or at least with a get away ability.
Is epic precision worth dropping when you look at bosses like the dragon/balor etc?

The 10 R /10 DFD/3 SD/7 cleric is what I run with now and truth be told it is fun, but I'm not sure how it will hold up after the divine power nerf.
It does feel like a RP flavor build ,though buffed at 30 with oke weapons he deals 80 a sneak a hit. It's just that it requires some preparation in order to pull off.
The same damage I can achieve with out divine power with another sneak build.

The wizard sneak build was just toying with the idea of making a polymorph build with sneak dice added, but I just can't test it as poly nor druid forms work on Jechts. It's more curiosity if it can be pulled off.

How much sneak should you aim for when it comes to a decent rogue build?
At this point it sounds like your typical rogue has 10 assassin/3 body guard/17 rogue to optimize sneaks or the build Growl suggested.
Not a huge fan of min/maxing skills like charisma/wisdom to 8 but with rogue build as a human it just feels like it is kind of needed.

I can't really go into details about the PC as I'll end up writing a couple of pages why and how . Though in terms of playstyle most builds fit, It's just that I'm not fond of ranged builds in general.

How do mixed sneakers hold up on the server? Think of 7WM/16 Rogue/3SD/4 Fighter (could go 9assassin/10 rogue/4fighter/7WM)

[chad878262]

The 10 R /10 DFD/3 SD/7 cleric is what I run with now and truth be told it is fun, but I'm not sure how it will hold up after the divine power nerf.
It does feel like a RP flavor build ,though buffed at 30 with oke weapons he deals 80 a sneak a hit. It's just that it requires some preparation in order to pull off.
The same damage I can achieve with out divine power with another sneak build.

The issue with this build is as you say. After Divine Power Nerf with Caster Level 18 (assuming practiced caster you will be getting + 5 Attack Bonus instead of what you get today which is setting your BAB to 30). However, IF you built with relatively high DEX (assuming 30 when buffed/equipped) you should still be fine. BAB 21 + 10 (DEX) + 5 (EB) + 1 (prowess) - 2 (PTWF) = 35 which for a HiPS'ter is standard. Thus with cleric buffs like bless and aid you don't really even need divine power to land blows. What divine power did is gave you 12 APR instead of 10 and, with haste actually gave you an extra attack in the first flurry (5 sneak attacks instead of 4). All told if you are enjoying it then I would say you may want to try it after the change and see if your enjoyment suffers. HiPSters are generally fine so long as they have at least 34 Attack Bonus which you still will. 80 damage per attack x 4 attacks in the first flurry is ~320 damage and enough to kill most/all caster mobs in 2 seconds so if you are doing that your golden. Divine Power change will not impact your damage, only your number of attacks per round (but as stated only impacts number of sneak attacks if you were also utilizing haste).

The wizard sneak build was just toying with the idea of making a polymorph build with sneak dice added, but I just can't test it as poly nor druid forms work on Jechts. It's more curiosity if it can be pulled off.

There is no reason for it not to work, but if going for a sneak polymorph build there is a lot to consider and would likely need it's own thread. So long as you retain HiPS and sneak dice in form then it will work, but with polymorph you really need to focus and because you are not going to get benefits of PTWF you would probably want to focus on archery, but if I recall correctly I am not sure archery focus/feats carry over in form? As I said, would need a longer discussion which we can have, but only if that is a route you are really going to go. Deathgrowl would probably be better than me at figuring out how to make such a build.

How much sneak should you aim for when it comes to a decent rogue build?

You want to do over 300 total damage in the first flurry. So for example with 16d6 sneak attack you will do (3.5x16)x4= 224 sneak attack damage on a "standard" R21/A9 build. Thus you would need to to an additional 76 damage from weapons, expose weakness and other modifiers. If using a shortsword +4 w/ d4 extra damage that'll give you ~40 average damage over your 4 attacks and you'll do ~20 from expose weakness bleed. Thus you are at around ~284 which isn't bad and pretty close tot he sweet spot. A R19/M3/A8 will have 14d6 sneak dice, but will get one additional attack in the first flurry and thus do ~245 average sneak damage on top of a little extra weapon damage which is what puts something like that closer to the top tier in terms of rogue builds. However, that is quite specialized as not everyone (very few) would want to be kama-rogues.

At this point it sounds like your typical rogue has 10 assassin/3 body guard/17 rogue to optimize sneaks or the build Growl suggested.
Not a huge fan of min/maxing skills like charisma/wisdom to 8 but with rogue build as a human it just feels like it is kind of needed.

Not necessarily a need for min/maxing though I would recommend dumping EITHER WIS OR CHA if not both, that's a judgement call, but to be honest you don't NEED to have 13 STR, you can leave it at 11. You don't NEED to have 16 INT, 14 is enough... The only stat you really need/want is to get DEX to 26 (30 w/ spell or +4 gloves). As to your build above I would actually go R19/A8/NWN3 if that is what you're interested in. Yes you lose 2 DC and some spells from assassin, but R19 feat can be any epic feat you want, which if you go human is HUGE since starting with 19 DEX vs. 17/18 is a big advantage. The final sneak dice are the same though so I suppose it is a question of flavor... Do you want more spells and death attack DC or an extra epic feat?

If we are talking optimization I would argue that the rogue power tower would be something like:
1. R16/M3/NWN3/A8 (this is not for newbies or the feint of heart as it get's HiPS at 30, but I suppose with free RCR it could be quite abit more popular)
2. R19/M3/A8 (as above, but gains an epic feat at the expense of boost to speed from bodyguard and 1 BAB)
3. P21/A9 ( not a rogue, but it is a rogue build and HiPS/ghost step cheese is fun)
4. R19/A8/NWN3
5. R17/A10/NWN3
6. R21/A9
7. P25/SD5 (gives up sneak dice in favor of getting epic dodge. reason it is lower is because with HiPS + Ghost Step you do not need Epic Dodge!)
8. R16/A9/IB5

I can't really think of any others that I would consider top tier off the top of my head, but I am sure someone will come along and call out whatever I missed. My point is you are not exactly limited to one build from a 'power' perspective. Honestly, as I said, the build you're talking about seems to be working fine for you and I don't really think it's going to be overly impacted by the divine power change. I played a Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 9/Assassin 8/Arcane Trickster 8 up to level 25 over about 2 years and had great fun. Not the strongest thing out there, but it doesn't have to be. Having Arcane (or Divine) spells to protect your PC allows it to be less than optimized and still do pretty well.

How do mixed sneakers hold up on the server? Think of 7WM/16 Rogue/3SD/4 Fighter (could go 9assassin/10 rogue/4fighter/7WM)

In my personal opinion if you were going go for a mixed sneaker weapon master is one of the worst builds you can pick. Sneak attacks do not synergize with crits and you are taking away from classes/prc's that increase damage that multiplies on crits to get damage that does not. If you want a 'Fighter/Rogue' consider either a simple R16/F14 OR something I like in theory would be Rogue 11/Assassin 9/Ghost Faced Killer 10. Get Shield Slam (no Two Weapon Fighting, go sword and board) and enjoy the #thuglife.

[Calen]

Thank you for giving the detailed explanation, it's very useful.
So far I'm quite fond of the Assassin/phantom build, it plays nice.
The 25 Phantom-5 SD also looks appealing but it will lack UMD, not sure how it would hold up in that regard.


How would you build the 21 phantom 9 assassin build stat wise and feat wise for a human.
Tiefling feels better for this build but RP wise I have a human PC I'm quite fond off.

I'm having some free feats pre 20 and not sure what to do with them.
Past 20 it is all pretty self explanatory aside from 2 sneak dice vs expose, I am leaning towards sneak dice.
Could you please help me out with the build?

Edit:

Does crit overwrite epic dodge?

[chad878262]

It builds similar to rogue, but you need WIS for AC...Not too much as remember the goal is to kill and not be hit with a rogue. For a Human I would likely go:

STR 13
DEX 17
CON 11
INT 14
WIS 13
CHA 8

Strength because with the belt of growth you get 16 STR, 14 CON and can actually loot a bit when you want to. 17 DEX because you can spend one epic feat on Great DEX to end up with 25 and can't really afford to take 3 points out of another stat to get to 18/26. Should be fine with the extra AC from 16 WIS.

For pre-epic feats I would go - TWF, ITWF, GTWF, Weapon Finesse, SF: Hide, SF: Move Silently for sure. That leaves you with 2 remaining feats for human. Stealthy can be had from an epic hood if you plan on looting enough to purchase epic gear, but if not that is a contender. Blinding Strike is fantastic, but not quite as good as it is for Rogue (I would still probably take it). Other options for consideration would be combat expertise/deadly defense if you plan to use wards to get AB up high enough to take the -3 AB for + d4 damage... Some might go for Luck of Hero's and Two Weapon Defense, but I feel more AC isn't really needed. Or you could look at the wiki and maybe take some flavor feats.

Important note that Phantom gets Crippling Strike at 16 so you have to determine what is more important (unless you are planning to use 100% RCR)... If you get HiPS ASAP then you won't get Crippling Strike until level 24 and thus can't take Epic Precision until 25... If you get Crippling Strike by 21 then you won't have HiPS until level 24 and thus your only sure way to proc sneak attacks after initial flurry is using Phantom Ghost Step which has a limited number of uses per rest (1/level). They'll likely be gone faster than you'd like.

Seeing as you can pretty much avoid crit immune area's I'd probably opt for HiPS ASAP, but to each his own. Finally, I would opt for Epic Prowess/Expose Weakness over IMproved Sneak Attack 1/2... It's a matter of +7 damage per sneak attack or ~28 sneak damage vs. stacking 20 damage per tick which can add up quick and will out damage ISA 1/2 on bosses (where it counts). Regardless of Build Expose Weakness is offensively what Epic Dodge is Defensively. If you qualify for it you have no excuse not to take it.

Enjoy your sneak, IMO the most fun play style in the game. Challenging and will never stand toe to toe with any tier 1 build, but a powerful tier 2 that can be devastating when you become experienced and skilled at playing it.

[Calen]

I'm going with this build, it will suit RP wise and the build is just fun to play.
Again thanks for taking the time to crunch it all down.
For a moment I was thinking of 5Fb/10D/7WM/8F but this is just more fun RP wise.

One question about picking wisdom.

Isn't this more plausible?

STR 13
DEX 18
CON 11
INT 14
WIS 10
CHA 8

You'll trade 1 AC for a ab and haven the luxury of getting perfect two weapon fighting earlier unless I'm missing something.

[chad878262]

Isn't this more plausible?

STR 13
DEX 18
CON 11
INT 14
WIS 10
CHA 8

You'll trade 1 AC for a ab and haven the luxury of getting perfect two weapon fighting earlier unless I'm missing something.

Sure, that also works... Or you could drop WIS to 11 and STR to 12 since you don't really need DEX gloves (Assassin can cast Cats Grace) and thus can use +4 STR gloves. This gives the option to use a +3 WIS Ring (can be found in loot, occasionally sold on Mudd's for ~25K) so that your neck can be used for an (epic) cloaked amulet. For stats I just threw something out quick, tweak as you wish.

[Calen]

I'm enjoying the build so far , it is a bit of a shame you can't pick blind strike as phantom.
I've ran around with luck of heroes + 2 weapon defense but starting to feel that expertise + deadly defense might be better when in a group.
Landing a hit isn't a problem while buffed and truth be told 1 save more or less isn't making a big difference compared to the damage DF is giving.
Perfect world there would be an item that gives combat expertise, that case you can snatch DF and luck of heroes.

How much search/disable device would be advised to take?
Ran into a 80 DC lock earlier thus thinking about maxing out lockpicking just out of curiosity.