What are all the cool clerics building these days?

[Deathgrowl]

I don't think still spell can be taken by cleric, and it doesn't apply to cleric anyways. They don't do gestures other than raise their holy symbol.

[Calodan]

What's happening to it, then? It sounded like it'll have a huge impact but again, I'm not really good with the building or mechanical side of the game.

It's getting a new formula. And if you go something like cleric20/hospitaler10, it's going to be even better than before.

You now get an AB bonus of hd/4+1 or cl/4+1 whichever is lower. That means if you're just an average level 30 cleric, you'll get 8 AB extra. Before, you'd get your BAB set to your HD (so 30 in this case), which is 8 bab higher.

It means you lose the last attack on the DP, but the AB remains the same. And if you go the cleric/hospitaler I just mentioned, you're still getting +8 AB, and that will make you have higher AB than the old use of DP gave you.

This is not true. The new DP is not better for clerics as the change puts the bonus in the AB now. Cleric classes already reached the +20 AB cap thus divine power is now only +3 to AB from the Str bonus. Where before it was 3+(30BAB-Character BAB) and you got the extra attack. New divine power is nerfed for clerics. A High BAB class using an elixir gets immense bonus however.

[Steve]

Change Log showed that DP Elixirs will be artificially capped at CL 12. I guess that means +3 AB only.

[Deathgrowl]

This is not true. The new DP is not better for clerics as the change puts the bonus in the AB now. Cleric classes already reached the +20 AB cap thus divine power is now only +3 to AB from the Str bonus. Where before it was 3+(30BAB-Character BAB) and you got the extra attack. New divine power is nerfed for clerics. A High BAB class using an elixir gets immense bonus however.

How did clerics already reach the +20 bonus? +5 from GMW, +1 from bless, +1 from aid, +2 from battletide, +3 from recitation... What am I missing? That's 12. DP will give 8. So that's hitting 20.

And I think matelener pointed it out elsewhere: If you are able to actually reach the 20 AB enhancement cap through your own spells, you don't really have that much to complain about. Indeed, I personally feel that is a ridiculous state of affairs, and bad game design for a multiplayer game to be so entirely self-reliant.
EDIT:
Here we are:

It breaks a little my mind, the complaint that you've reached +20 AB magic cap and somehow it's not enough ?

It's very well put.

[A Small Cute Cat]

Divine Favor adds 3, last I checked!

Out of curiosity - is it possible to have a divine sneak kind of character? Like a rogue with divine spells?

That would be really fitting for my character RP-wise.

[Deathgrowl]

Divine Favor adds 3, last I checked!

Fair point!

I stand by my support of the DP change, though. And that's still only 15 AB enhancement. Still lacking 5 from that cap Calodan was talking about.

Reaching that 20 AB enhancement cap on a cleric or FS with 22 base strength (your average EDMer) means you'll be at 22 + 8 (strength) + 1 (weapon focus) + 20 for a total of 51 AB. That's good. That's very good. And if you're cheesy for the expose weakness, you're picking up epic prowess, so that's 52. If reaching that 20 cap is done by DP, you also get another two strength, so you're at 53.

Prior to the DP change, we're then looking at - for the same build - 30 + 9 (strength with DP) + 1 (wf) + 1 (eprowess) + 15 = 56. Now if it's true what Calodan says, and you can reach the 20 cap by self-buffing, that's 61. That is massive. Massive, really. For comparison, the self-reliant WM/FB has around 51 AB (depending a bit on race for strength and other build differences) with a +4 weapon.

Anyways, I digress.

Out of curiosity - is it possible to have a divine sneak kind of character? Like a rogue with divine spells?

That would be really fitting for my character RP-wise.

https://wiki.bgtscc.net/index.php?title ... e_Disciple

I haven't really looked into how to build one effectively myself.

[A Small Cute Cat]

Requirements
Alignment: Any nongood.

My character's good-aligned

[Rudolph]

+5 from GMW, +1 from bless, +1 from aid, +2 from battletide, +3 from recitation... What am I missing? That's 12

+3 Divine Favor +1 Battletide +1 Prayer +2 Heroism (readily available wand, party member, or Anyspell) +1 (Inspire Courage/Haste/Reduce Person/Blessed Aim - depending on class mix, items, or domains).

I still think the nerf is not as terrible for 30 CL clerics as some seem to fear. AB will still be quite high and not using DP makes spell slot management easier, esp. if the Cleric doesn't have the Strength domain. My concern is more with whacky Sneak Attack and ranged builds that rely on DP BAB for extra attacks with short term super power. Had a dart thrower that could do 320+ dmg in the first flurry albeit not often and only for bouts of 2 mins - but maybe these are the sort of numbers that the developers want to discourage. I don't mind in principle - every change is a challenge - but do hope that this doesn't lead to fewer and fewer viable combinations because off-track ideas no longer pay off. Anyway, the proof is in the pudding. The effects on builds will take a while to become clear.

[Deathgrowl]

Then the only one that offers caster progression for divine casters and access to hide/ms is Harper Agent.

Generally, though, divine casters don't mix all that well with sneaking, which is unfortunate, but just how the game is designed. It's hard to get enough wisdom to cast spells, enough int to have the skill points and enough strength or dex to have enough AB and damage. And on BG you need 19 dex for shadowdancer, so that's a requirement either way if you want to go for that.

An alternative is to use divine casting as more of a flavour and less something for the character to rely on. I rarely recommend using Hoihe as an example for building, but the character Lafali'Atria is a weird swashbuckler5/wizard16/duelist6/shadowdancer3 mix that somehow manages to do well enough in most of the content without using the buffs from wizard. Should be even easier to use cleric for that sort of flavour class.

Lets say cleric8/hospitaler10/rogue3/assassin9, just as an example. This should get 14 + 4 CL and 24 bab, and highest spell level is 7. Just stick to 14 dex, 14 wisdom (get a +3 wisdom item for casting spells) and focus on strength for your attack. The important thing is you don't play this like a cleric, where you buff up. Think of it as a rogue build that has access to healing spells and other nice bonuses. So getting gear is as important on this as any rogue or fighter. You don't use buffs - or at least long term buffs. You use short, situational buffs and healing. So you aren't concerned about being dispelled as much.

It's not a powerful build by any means. But it'll work for most of the server if you're patient enough and willing to accept it as a flavour build and all the challenges that come with that.

[Rudolph]

Good points, Deathgrowl, thank you. I generally agree with them, but here, just for people who like thinking about builds, a divine sneaker that does have some advantages and was only made possible like this with the old Divine Power. With all the (undispelled) gimmicks it was even stronger than I thought:
http://nwn2db.com/build/?274991

[Calodan]

Prayer adds 1 and greater heroism potions add 4 AB. That makes 20 AB capped. So a cleric is only getting +3 Str bonus. It however does not stack with bulls Str so wait you only get 1 AB from the spell now. For a measly 6 seconds per CL. The spell is effectively neutered beyond use now.

[Deathgrowl]

Saves you from using greater heroism potions. Those have to get expensive after a while.

[Calodan]

Saves you from using greater heroism potions. Those have to get expensive after a while.

Not at all. Gold is a non issue in the server. I am merely pointing out the flaws in your selling points. Or was the need for gold sinks not really an issue as QC has continually sold us on?
Why not make the Str bonus divine so it stacks with other Str spells?

[TheKai]

Saves you from using greater heroism potions. Those have to get expensive after a while.

Not at all. Gold is a non issue in the server. I am merely pointing out the flaws in your selling points. Or was the need for gold sinks not really an issue as QC has continually sold us on?
Why not make the Str bonus divine so it stacks with other Str spells?

Gold is a non issue for looters and power builders. Probably an issue for those not in those two categories.

[Darker_Thought]

Hard to make perhaps but a Hips/Cleric DC Caster *nodnod*

Dont forgett Practised Spellcaster Feat x)