Feat Suggestion: Improved Weapon Finesse

[chad878262]

My guess is that if this is implemented the goal would be for things like PA/IPA, Northern Hewing and other strong striking modes not to work, or if you activate them the AB from DEX is lost... This is only my personal opinion though and nothing has been decided QC side.

[Sun Wukong]

A shortsword does 1d6 damage. That is 3.5~ on average.
A greataxe does 1d12 damage. That 6.5~ on average.

Let us assume that our a gnome or halfling Fighter/Swashbuckler/Weapon Master/Frenzied Berserker has that +7 modifier in dexterity and +10 modifier with intelligence:

The damage would be:
1d6 (Shortsword)
+15 (1.5*Intelligence modifier due to Combat Insight)
+10 (Insightful Strike from Swashbuckler 5)
+4 (Enchantment Bonus)
+20 (Improved Power Attack)
= 52.5~

Now let us assume a similar build with same stats and weapon with a tiefling:
1d6 (Shortsword)
+10 (Intelligence modifier from to Combat Insight)
+10 (Insightful Strike from Swashbuckler 5)
+4 (Enchantment Bonus)
= 27.5~

Now let us change the weapon to a 'Improved Weapon Finesse' Greataxe:
1d12 (Great Axe)
+15 (1.5*Intelligence modifier due to Combat Insight)
+4 (Enchantment Bonus)
+20 (Improved Power Attack)
= 45.5~

Honestly, I do not see a reason to restrict PA/IPA from being used with 'Improved Weapon Finesse.' You would still be better off as a member of a small race.

As for Northlander Hewing, I am under the impression that it does not allow you to get Extra Damage from your Intelligence modifier. Thus, I do not see the logic or reason to use Northlander Hewing on a high dexterity build when you could get the same AB and more damage just by going for a high strength build - and actually raise the other ability scores far higher than you could with a build that needs to raise both Int and Dex.

[Akroma666]

I don't see why improved weapon finesse shouldn't work with int/wisdom bonuses. However I don't think it should work with power attack.. fundamentally how does that even work?

[Sun Wukong]

This is the PnP description:

Power Attack [General]

Prerequisite: Strength 13

Benefit:
On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn.

Special:
If you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls. You can’t add the bonus from Power Attack to the damage dealt with a light weapon (except with unarmed strikes or natural weapon attacks), even though the penalty on attack rolls still applies. (Normally, you treat a double weapon as a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. If you choose to use a double weapon like a two-handed weapon, attacking with only one end of it in a round, you treat it as a two-handed weapon.)

A fighter may select Power Attack as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Based on the actual PnP feat description, I think it is due to the weapon quality, shape, and perhaps even structural integrity. Basic physics in otherwords, well, as far as those apply to D&D!

[Ambaryerno]

This is the PnP description:

Power Attack [General]

Prerequisite: Strength 13

Benefit:
On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn.

Special:
If you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls. You can’t add the bonus from Power Attack to the damage dealt with a light weapon (except with unarmed strikes or natural weapon attacks), even though the penalty on attack rolls still applies. (Normally, you treat a double weapon as a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. If you choose to use a double weapon like a two-handed weapon, attacking with only one end of it in a round, you treat it as a two-handed weapon.)

A fighter may select Power Attack as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Based on the actual PnP feat description, I think it is due to the weapon quality, shape, and perhaps even structural integrity. Basic physics in otherwords, well, as far as those apply to D&D!

The problem is Power Attack/IPA are conceptually built on the idea of swinging for power and trading accuracy. That to me is mutually exclusive with finesse attacks. Don't get me wrong, proper mechanics (front hand fulcrum and back hand leverage working together in a push-pull action) can still put a fair bit of force behind the blow, but from my experience handling actual weapons that allows you to make quick attacks without substantial loss of power, not adding MORE power to the blow.

Think of it like this: DEX-based 2Hers fight primarily with the wrists and forearms, leading to small movement, with good body mechanics making up for the loss of raw power to still strike with authority. By contrast, Power Attacks are great shearing blows executed from the shoulder; they're not necessarily wild and reckless, but are big slow, powerful movements that are easier to pick up and see coming and defend against (thus the loss of AB).

Thus part of why I proposed Dex 2H as an actual class, with a mode (Measured Blows) that would prevent using PA on top of gaining DEX to AB.

[Sun Wukong]

Where as I would argue that the no light weapon power attack is the faulty bit rules, you can always swing/stab harder.

[Ambaryerno]

Where as I would argue that the no light weapon power attack is the faulty bit rules, you can always swing/stab harder.

Only to a point, as weight and distribution of mass are very significant factors. It doesn't matter HOW hard you swing a rapier, you ain't gonna be hacking off limbs with it. A longsword, however, can cleave a skull in two.

[Sun Wukong]

Depends on what you mean by a rapier...

[Ambaryerno]

Depends on what you mean by a rapier...

Be careful not to confuse the side-sword with the rapier.

The hilts are often similar, but the side-sword has a shorter and broader blade more like the arming sword, with the weight concentrated further out onto the blade from the guard. Rapiers CAN cut, but are poorly suited to deep slashes since all the mass is concentrated in the hilt.

[Ambaryerno]

Bumping this to see if there's been any movement on it.

[TheKai]

Did this ever make it in game?