Deathward - Make is prevent Ability damage

Suggestions Should Be Posted in Their Respective Categories

Moderators: Moderator, Quality Control, Developer, DM

User avatar
Grendunor
Posts: 318
Joined: Tue Jan 02, 2018 12:36 pm

Deathward - Make is prevent Ability damage

Unread post by Grendunor »

For a while now deathward has been improved to be more like it's pen and paper counterpart. Unfortunately I am not high king of Skyrim Nwn2 is not pen and paper and removing deathward's ability to stop ability drain and damage has what I assume is unintended balance consequences.

[See Crippling strike sneak snowball builds]

While the previous incarnation saw the use of Deathward wand vs Breach wand in terms of defensive and offensive counter play while the current incarnation requires enough UMD or a master alchemist to provide stonebody scrolls/elixirs for preventative measures.

You could say Use a wand/potion of restoration, but in terms of action economy that is an efficient way to not longer exist.

My secondary suggestion if deathward is going to remain in it's pen and paper state we upgrade heal to act as it should in Pen and paper and apply the logic used to justify the deathward change to healing spells.
Oleander Stonehearth - Reluctant Hero
Layla Zaisis - The Lost Priestess
Ilinoril Spiritmoon - Emotional Support Elf
- And a cavalcade of retired characters

"EATSIES!!!" - The Troll-sage 2018
User avatar
KOPOJIbPAKOB
Retired Staff
Posts: 850
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 5:24 am

Re: Deathward - Make is prevent Ability damage

Unread post by KOPOJIbPAKOB »

Crippling strike is that very reason I agree with this post. Yes, Death ward was overpowered before, but after its nerf crippling strike became overpowered instead. I play a strength based character and one flurry of crippling strike blows makes it overburdened. No save, no protection from it, nothing — is it normal? (it's not) The only protection from it is stone/iron body, but it lowers your ac dramatically and cuts your movespeed unless you had FoM on you before, seems like an overkill to spend so much efforts countering a passive feat triggering with every sneak attack.

I'd say the thread should be called "nerf crippling strike" instead and I fully support it. This ability is OP. It should be made Fort-save based with a DC equal to Blinding strike DC or something.
(\/);,;(\/)

Discord: Nastya Raynor#3136

Pink is me speaking on behalf of the Media Team, everything else is just my player opinion.
User avatar
K'yon Oblodra
Recognized Donor
Posts: 1009
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2009 3:38 am
Location: Berlin

Re: Deathward - Make is prevent Ability damage

Unread post by K'yon Oblodra »

Just for PvE I sometimes wished shadow shield would protect from ability drain or some other arcane spell...
K'yon Oblodra
Necromancer of the school of Necromancy
Silent seat for the school of Necromancy
User avatar
Lockonnow
Posts: 2921
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2010 12:10 pm

Re: Deathward - Make is prevent Ability damage

Unread post by Lockonnow »

well what i have been told there is a wizard spell in DnD spellworld that sould proection one from that cant remember the name of it
Last edited by Lockonnow on Sun Nov 24, 2019 11:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
DaloLorn
Lead Programmer
Posts: 2035
Joined: Tue Mar 26, 2019 2:44 am
Location: Discord (Dalo Lorn#0171)

Re: Deathward - Make is prevent Ability damage

Unread post by DaloLorn »

KOPOJIbPAKOB wrote: Sat Nov 23, 2019 8:01 pm Crippling strike is that very reason I agree with this post. Yes, Death ward was overpowered before, but after its nerf crippling strike became overpowered instead. I play a strength based character and one flurry of crippling strike blows makes it overburdened. No save, no protection from it, nothing — is it normal? (it's not) The only protection from it is stone/iron body, but it lowers your ac dramatically and cuts your movespeed unless you had FoM on you before, seems like an overkill to spend so much efforts countering a passive feat triggering with every sneak attack.

I'd say the thread should be called "nerf crippling strike" instead and I fully support it. This ability is OP. It should be made Fort-save based with a DC equal to Blinding strike DC or something.
Honestly, while I like Grendunor's secondary suggestion... it definitely wouldn't solve this problem.
European player, UTC+1 (+2 during DST). Fixer of random bits. Active in Discord.
Active characters:
  • Zeila Linepret
  • Aela Lathyaan
  • Ilhara Evrine
  • Linathyl Selmiyeritar
  • Aeryn Faer
  • Virin Swifteye
  • Gurzhuk
User avatar
Hoihe
Posts: 4711
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2011 2:25 pm

Re: Deathward - Make is prevent Ability damage

Unread post by Hoihe »

I am 100% certain this was the intended change.

You could shut down an integral class mechanic of an otherwise pretty (p00pie) class with a single spell or two (pfa/mindblank and death ward).

You don't need fort saves. Rogues already have basically no AB.

Spotting sneakers is stupid easy. You have 1d20 bonus on top of more abundant gear and buffs.

You can fix ability damage with a potion of lesser restoration with ease.

This is a PvP issue anyway, so pretty irrelevant.

In PvE, rogues must have crippling strike work without a save to have a fighting chance, as it helps mitigate their non-existent AC which is forced on them by grossly-inflated spot/listen scores mandating a full set of stealth gear over what you would normally go for.

I do however support buffing Heal to P&P levels.
For life to be worth living, afterlife must retain individuality, personal identity and  memories without fail  - https://www.sageadvice.eu/do-elves-reta ... afterlife/
A character belongs only to their player, and only them. And only the player may decide what happens.
User avatar
Blackman D
Retired Staff
Posts: 4810
Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2009 5:43 am
Location: IL

Re: Deathward - Make is prevent Ability damage

Unread post by Blackman D »

Hoihe wrote: Sun Nov 24, 2019 5:58 am You can fix ability damage with a potion of lesser restoration with ease.
problem solved...

if you can cast death ward you can cast lesser restore

if you can use death ward UMD you can use lesser restore UMD

...im not seeing an issue here :?
everyone is evil till proven otherwise
User avatar
DaloLorn
Lead Programmer
Posts: 2035
Joined: Tue Mar 26, 2019 2:44 am
Location: Discord (Dalo Lorn#0171)

Re: Deathward - Make is prevent Ability damage

Unread post by DaloLorn »

Blackman D wrote: Sun Nov 24, 2019 7:03 am
Hoihe wrote: Sun Nov 24, 2019 5:58 am You can fix ability damage with a potion of lesser restoration with ease.
problem solved...

if you can cast death ward you can cast lesser restore

if you can use death ward UMD you can use lesser restore UMD

...im not seeing an issue here :?
The OP did address why that was a problem. If you spend each round drinking restoration potions or using restoration wands, you are essentially locked down, harmless until the ability damage stops coming. (Which... admittedly, should happen unless you're being flanked or fighting a HiPS build. Then again, since this constitutes the majority of half-decent builds that would have access to Crippling Strike in the first place... :|)
European player, UTC+1 (+2 during DST). Fixer of random bits. Active in Discord.
Active characters:
  • Zeila Linepret
  • Aela Lathyaan
  • Ilhara Evrine
  • Linathyl Selmiyeritar
  • Aeryn Faer
  • Virin Swifteye
  • Gurzhuk
User avatar
Theodore01
Recognized Donor
Posts: 2927
Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2011 5:32 pm

Re: Deathward - Make is prevent Ability damage

Unread post by Theodore01 »

Haven't noticed any problem with the 'altered' deathward yet. And i play many different builds.

People are just too used to be invulnerable all the time. Any step to bring some danger back to the sword coast is a good one.


Is it a specific area that is problematic ?
User avatar
KOPOJIbPAKOB
Retired Staff
Posts: 850
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 5:24 am

Re: Deathward - Make is prevent Ability damage

Unread post by KOPOJIbPAKOB »

Hoihe wrote: Sun Nov 24, 2019 5:58 am I am 100% certain this was the intended change.

You could shut down an integral class mechanic of an otherwise pretty (p00pie) class with a single spell or two (pfa/mindblank and death ward).

You don't need fort saves. Rogues already have basically no AB.

Spotting sneakers is stupid easy. You have 1d20 bonus on top of more abundant gear and buffs.

You can fix ability damage with a potion of lesser restoration with ease.

This is a PvP issue anyway, so pretty irrelevant.

In PvE, rogues must have crippling strike work without a save to have a fighting chance, as it helps mitigate their non-existent AC which is forced on them by grossly-inflated spot/listen scores mandating a full set of stealth gear over what you would normally go for.

I do however support buffing Heal to P&P levels.
You're selling rogues extremely short, Hoihe, but yes, it's a PvP issue and it -is- rellevant.

For a moment, even before DW nerf every single rogue build still used to pick this feat as a prerequisite for epic precision. And now this feat also gives extremely powerful ability drain that doesn't require to click any extra buttons or otherwise put efforts — it just automatically triggers with any sneak attack. In other words, you play the same quite playable and powerful rogue, BUT you're also sapping enemy's strength to the ground and make them unable to move with every attack. And it's just one passive feat that wasn't even picked for that purpose!

Overpowered feat is not something that can't be countered at all. It's something that gives too many benefits for a disproportionately small cost. Swashbuckler's weakening critical, for instance, is well balanced. Crippling strike is not.
(\/);,;(\/)

Discord: Nastya Raynor#3136

Pink is me speaking on behalf of the Media Team, everything else is just my player opinion.
User avatar
Blackman D
Retired Staff
Posts: 4810
Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2009 5:43 am
Location: IL

Re: Deathward - Make is prevent Ability damage

Unread post by Blackman D »

fight a swashbuckler that has 7 WM and a 13-20 crit range on a rapier and see if you feel that they are not the same then

or maybe it just seems that way because swash is still stopped by stone body and rogues are no longer stopped with their ability

spellcasters and UMD users dont need to be all mighty versus everyone
everyone is evil till proven otherwise
User avatar
Snarfy
Posts: 1403
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2011 12:14 pm

Re: Deathward - Make is prevent Ability damage

Unread post by Snarfy »

KOPOJIbPAKOB wrote: Sun Nov 24, 2019 8:57 amSwashbuckler's weakening critical, for instance, is well balanced. Crippling strike is not.
Yes it is, for rogue heavy builds at least. They have to get something out of being complete gimps VS server content, don't they?

Oh, wait... do you even have a toon with rogue heavy investment? I'm betting not, because, if you did, you'd complain less about crippling strike, and more about those low Will and Fort saves.
There are no level 30's, only level 20's with benefits...
User avatar
electric mayhem
Posts: 1090
Joined: Thu May 18, 2017 6:51 pm

Re: Deathward - Make is prevent Ability damage

Unread post by electric mayhem »

Side note: Got a feeling this deathward change was to nerf the hellfire warlock con drain immunity. Probably alongside other reasons of course.



~Claret - Proprietor of Clarity Cellars.
~Wouveir - Hellstorm Crew
~Adolamin Marblerune - Arcane Engineer and Lorekeeper citizen of the Kingdom of Kraak Helzak. [His Story]
~Harrison Remillard - Morninglord of the Song of the Morning Temple.


User avatar
Blackman D
Retired Staff
Posts: 4810
Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2009 5:43 am
Location: IL

Re: Deathward - Make is prevent Ability damage

Unread post by Blackman D »

no hellfire was nerfed directly for that, it doesnt work at all if you are unable to lose con

that was done a rather long time ago
everyone is evil till proven otherwise
Sputnik
Posts: 452
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2016 5:02 am

Re: Deathward - Make is prevent Ability damage

Unread post by Sputnik »

Deathward is fine as it is.
Francis 'Frank' Waynn - City Watch Recruit
Tytos Lyonson - Ebon Blade Sergeant
Vaelen - Proprietor of Derringer Mercantile, hedge-wizard, politician
Post Reply

Return to “Suggestions and Discussion”